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  Topic Review (Newest First)
09-12-14 08:13 PM
The Irish Commissar Thanks a million Vaz and everyone else for the comments. One of the reasons I love Heresy
09-12-14 12:18 PM
Vaz You'd have to build him right, I think. He can be taken in a 2K list, unless I'm missing something, which means you have a 500pt army backing him up (500pts for the core - and as pointed out, the core sucks, so can't really be counted for much IMHO).

This means you need to encourage as much magic as possible - hence, Casket of Souls and heirotitan are pretty much autoincludes.

You're going to want to be able to bring on all of your models available, which means that you're going to want to take every Undeath lore spell to guarantee you don't miss out on an important one - so take all 7, leaving you with 2 other spells to randomly roll - I'd take both for Lore of Vampires so you can heal yourself should you get injured, and for Invocation should that prove necessary, or Death so you should be able to get additional power dice (but honestly, doing damage is the last thing you're going to want to achieve).

Don't take any other characters, you can easily raise them (remember, he triples raised points, and adds 30pts for each counter spent, rather than 10 - So Ryse 9+ = 150pts Infantry, Ryse 14+ = 300pts Infantry, Ryse 16+ = 450pts Monstrous Infantry, Razkhar 10+ 225 War Beasts/Swarms, Razkhar 16+ = 450pts Monstrous Beasts, Kandorak 10+ = Character = 195pts, Kandorak 24+ = 600pts Monster, Chariot or War Machine, Akar'aran 16+ = 450pts of Cavalry, Monstrous Cavalry or Chariots). Although a BSB is fairly important, they're expensive - the cheapest one is 110pts for a Wight King - using Kandorak on a 10+ gets you a BSB you can place.

So, it's looking something like;

Nagash = 1K

Core = 500pts

Rare = Casket, Heirotitan = 310

This leaves you with a further 190pts to spend - This prevents you from taking Black Coaches, Terrogheists, Necrosphinxes, Mortis Engines, Blood Knights (200pts Minimum unit cost).

190pts for me would look like double Screaming Skull Catapult (180), and then max out archers for ranged damage, and then raise in tanky blocks of units - maybe a single unit of Zombies with which you can throw one dice Invocation of Nehek/Morkarn to add to at the end of each phase if you have it spare and your staff has 4 dice stored in it.

It would suffer to a faster cavalry based army until you can summon enough units to put down something to take it down (a Mournfang heavy Ogre army, or a Skullcrusher Heavy Chaos Knight), as they can easily force an Instability check on something as crap as Skeleton Archers with around give or take 15 wounds, causing entire units to blink out as a result of their horrific damage output.

Nagash doesn't come into his until 3K, IMHO, when he has a balanced 2K army list (remember that you're going to effectively have larger than a 2K list, as you're not going to want to "waste" points on your previously mandatory level 4, who can no longer cast spells thanks to Nagash solely making use of the winds of magic, so it's probably nearer the base army of a 2,4-2,5K list). These armies at least have access to thinks like Necrosphinx for Ogres, or Black Knights+Banner of the Barrows to make a mockery of heavy cavalry,

I think he's pretty powerful, but I think the problem will become using him as a crutch. For a beginner, I'd recommend just learning the game originally. It would be like suggesting to a new 40K player how to use a Primarch, who brings all these massive force multipliers to an army (literally, in this case). Sure, it makes them individually more powerful, but it makes the army massively smaller (in an army that relies on its size over individual valour for the most part), and removing such a crutch completely changes the status of the army.

I.e get him, paint him, it's a beautiful model, and even play a few games with him - but while you're learning I'd keep to a more "normal" army.

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09-11-14 09:46 AM
The Irish Commissar So would you recommend nagash for a newcomer and is he worth is massive points.
09-10-14 09:37 PM
Vaz Nagash is brilliant. Level 5 caster is fantastic, the ability to 10 dice is brilliant, and being able to bring in triple the value of troops with an extra 30 pts generated per counter means he can quickly make up the points deficit. Don't be fooled by his combat stats. They are to prevent him from being cannon sniped/HKB assassinated.

Other characters - only Mannfred is worth his points, and he can combat and cast well enough. Arkhans sucks. Neferata blows, and she uses teeth too. Krell, eh. You can summon him with a few counters thanks to Nagash. Vlad, his special thing relies on him dying. Not sure that's a thing that anyone wants to build on. He is fairly tough, but you can build tougher Vampire Lords if that's your thing.

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09-10-14 08:17 PM
The Irish Commissar Alright that's great thank. One final question, what do you think of Nagash and the new special characters.
09-10-14 11:52 AM
Vaz They can make them. They just suck ass.

The best use of Ballistic Skill shooting is taking Khalida which gives a single unit BS3 shooting with unmodified to hit rolls (so, always hits on a 4+), and gains Poisoned attacks. A big, big horde of these is around 60 strong, with a supporting Level 4 Heirophant making use of Smiting to make them Multiple Shots 2. The tax of the Heirophant and its limitation on its lore made it difficult to get access to debuffs/weapon buffs (not only because Death and Light kind of suck for that as well).

With Undead legions, you can take;

Lore of Fire; Flaming Sword of Rhuin (+1 to wound, arrows are magical and flaming), Fulminating Flame Cage (penalises enemy movement) - Vampire Counts with Forbidden Lore of Metal; Plague of Rust (-1 to enemy Armour Saves), Enchanted Blades of Aiban (don't benefit from the bonus to hit, but become Armour Piercing and Magical), Transmutation of Lead (-1 to enemy Armour Saves) - Vampire Counts with Forbidden Lore
Lore of Light; Net of Amyntok (Slows enemy movement) - Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts with Forbidden Lore
Lore of Heavens; Harmonic Convergence (rerolls 1's to hit and to wound), Wind Blast (slows enemy movement), Curse of the Midnight Wind (enemy rerolls 6's to save) - Vampire Counts with Forbidden Lore
Lore of Shadow; Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma (-d3 Movement, slows enemies), The Withering (-d3 toughness),
Lore of Death; Soulblight (-1 Toughness) - Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts with Forbidden Lore

As you can see, there are many options which enhance an Archer Horde - I personally think Heavens is the best best, especially as with Bretonnia around the corner, their Skylance Pegasus Knights will become big business once again, and slowing them down and causing damage to them will be big boost, but Lore of Fire is ALWAYS useful (Flame Cage should have been their 6th spell, but been more dangerous), especially with the Wood Elf bandwagon and with Regeneration coming out in big numbers with Undead letting Tomb Kings, Necrotects, Crypt Horrors and Sphinxes play together with Mortis engines, and can help you strip Regen.

Ballistic Skill shooting does suck, but sink some resources into it, and you're fairly golden. It usually revolved around the Watchtower scenario, however, when they could take the watchtower and hold it indefinitely.

Cavalry, erm, you can field a lot of cheap horsemen. And by cheap, I mean crap. WS2, S4, 1 Attack, Initiative 2, large base size etc means that they're typically going to be outside of range for March movement - if Fantasy ever gets more Objective based games, then they'd suffer even more. For "Heavy" Cavalry with a 4+ Save, they blow ass, especially when you've got access to Chariots who can at least do damage with their Impact hits, and have My Will Be Done for WS6, or Black Knights who have the Banner of the Barrows, Killing Blow, S6 Lance Charges and a 2+ Save, there's no need whatsoever for Heavy Cavalry in a list unless you like the look of the 20 year old skeleton horses and massive headed skeletons.

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09-10-14 08:42 AM
The Irish Commissar That sounds like an awesome deathstar. I've also heard people say that tombkings are good for archer heavy hoards or calvary hoards. What do you guys think.
09-09-14 10:03 PM
Vaz Indeed - the rest of the named characters are missing, unless they're upgraded to Mortarch status by Nagash. Still, there's little reason to actually take any of them - the only worthwhile Mortarch is Mannfred IMHO. Arkhan doesn't provide enough oomph, and is missing the Lore of the Vampires and other combat hittiness to make him worthwhile, Neferata, I don't know what the hell they were thinking when the wrote her rules and points value.

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09-09-14 09:03 PM
Words_of_Truth Btw I just realised after reading through the list again, you can use Apophas as well as Khalida, they are the only two named characters available.
09-09-14 08:58 PM
Vaz It adds +d3 to your number of power dice available - normally you're limited to 2d6+channeled dice (channeling is each wizard rolls a d6 for each Caster level they have - on a 6, they gain an extra Power Dice only they can use) - which is up against a dispel scroll, and an opponents dispel pool, which is equal to their channeled dice, plus the highest number out of the 2d6 roll you made - you may roll a 1 and a 6, which means you're shit out of luck.

This is where the Casket comes in - you're adding +d3 dice to the pool - that's 4 turns out of 6, you're rocking +d6 to your casting total on 2 spells. Yeah, sure, it can potentially give you extra spells to cast, but that's spreading what's available too thin, and if your opponent is good at prioritising, can choose which spells to dispel, and which to let through. 6 dicing, as it's called, is a tactic which means you throw as many possible dice (normally 6, hence the name) into getting a spell off. To that, you add your Wizard level (usually 4), and any other bonuses available. On average dice, a Level 4 making use of 6 dicing can get off a 25+ spell. In the Lore of Undeath, that means you can get off a spell which can summon a 200pt Monster etc to the field. For free.

However, vampires are one of the few armies which benefit a lot from casting more spells - it is what keeps their Vampires alive, healing a wound any time they cast a spell.

Back when I played, I ran a so-called "Unkillable Vampire Lord", which ran around a 2+/4++, T5, 4 wounds, and forced all successful wounds made against him be rerolled. The only time he ever really came close to dying was when I decided to be cocky against a Cannonball, and didn't take the Look Out, Sir! - I failed the Ward Save, and thanks only to poor rolling was he around to see the next magic phase - suffering 3 wounds, I cast 3 Lore of the Vampires spells, putting me back to full health again. Incidentally, he was no slouch in close combat, either. I can't wait until 9th edition comes around, when I may be able to field him on a zombie dragon, when he becomes even more unkillable if the rumour mills are correct in conjoined statlines becoming a thing.

In regards to your list -

The most notable thing about Tomb Kings melee magic items/characters is the Death Mask of Kharnut. This is kind of cool, in that when it forces a Fear check on the charge, if failed the unit must make a flee reaction. This rarely comes into effect - a Battle Standard Bearer and a General nearby (a 24-32" bubble is big thing) means that the unit not only gets a reroll, but an improved Leadership - almost universally Ld10, as a result of Banner of Discipline). That thing isn't going anywhere. However, the Deathmask allows you to force nearby enemy units to gain no effect from their Generals and BSB's, causing a line break.

This is where you begin to go down the Vampire fear buffing routine - Aura of Dark Majesty is a 6" debuff to leadership, Beguile forces a challenged opponent to pass Ld test with a severe penalty or reroll successful to hit rolls (I used the two above in conjunction to force massive rerolls), and the Screaming Banner which forces 3d6 discard the lowest for fear tests and a forced reroll from Fear Incarnate, you can pretty much guarantee victory.

This is a lot of points;

60pt TK item
25pt VC power
20pt VC power
15pt VC power
25pt VC magic item, which comes to a Vampire Lord, Tomb King, and another Vampire.

It also prevents you from putting it into a Black Knight or Blood Knight unit - so effectively limits it to Grave Guard. You're going to want to ensure you can get the unit there, a Liche Priest to ensure that you can move it, as you may not be guaranteed to get Vanhel's Danse Macabre off.

Throwing a Wight Lord with the Banner of the Barrows in there is just the final step for this literal Death Star (bearing in mind that the Unkillable Vampire Lord has just dropped to a 4+/4++ as well). This ends up with having a Vampire Lord, Tomb King, Vampire, and Wight Lord, along with a full command Grave Guard unit. If there's a Liche Priest nearby with Smiting as well...

The charge ends up something like;

Force a Panic test - if within 6", apply -1 to Leadership, and do not allow General or BSB reroll. If failed attempt to catch (unlikely).
If unit is still there, charge in.
Cast Vanhel's Danse Macabre
Cast Hellish Vigour
Cast Ptra's Incantation of Righteous Smiting
Roll for Fear test, at -1 Ld, on a 3d6 and discard the lowest, ignoring general and BSB buffs, rerolling if successful. If the test is failed, enemy at -1 Ld.
Vampire Lord offers a challenge to the most killy enemy character. If accepted, enemy take a Ld test on a total of -4 - if failed, enemy must reroll successful to hit rolls against the Vampire Lord (in addition to rerolls to wound).
Vampire Lord attacks - 6 WS7 Initiative 7 S7 attacks rerolling failed to hit and to wound.
Vampire Attacks - 5 WS6 Initiative 6 S6 attacks rerolling failed to hit and to wound
Wight King attacks - 4 WS6 Initiative 4 S4 Killing Blow attacks, +1 to hit, rerolling failed to hit and to wound
Tomb King attacks - 5 WS6 Initiative 3 S7 attacks, rerolling failed to hit and to wound.
Grave Guard Seneschal attacks - 3 WS6 Initiative 3 S6 Killing Blow attacks, +1 to hit, rerolling failed to hit and to wound.
Assuming 6 wide formation, 1 more Grave Guard in first rank - 2 WS6 Initiative 3 S6 Killing Blow attacks, +1 to hit, rerolling failed to hit and to wound.
Assuming 6 wide formation, 6 supporting attacks from Grave Guard in second rank - 6 WS6 Initiative 3 S6 Killing Blow attacks, +1 to hit, rerolling failed to hit and to wound

Whoa - that's how you death star...

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