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Thread: The Imperium needs more marines!? Reply to Thread
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  Topic Review (Newest First)
05-12-14 09:51 AM
hailene
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
I'm just saying I would be shocked if that were the case.
I would be, too. But that's not what I meant.

What I meant by my earlier post is that the Imperium gets more bang for their buck by spreading a relatively moderate amount of materiel across a great many Guardsmen than a lot of resources on less Guardsmen.

I think we can all agree there, right?

Also, materiel might be spread thinner than you anticipate. Take the humble Chimera. It's produced on Forgeworlds, yet it is also simple enough that Hiveworlds can churn them out by the tens of thousands. The 5th edition Guard codex states, though, that mechanised infantry companies are still quite rare "because it is difficult for most Imeprial Commanders and PLanetary Governors to obtain and maintain enough of the vehicles needed..."

I don't doubt the Imperium's industrial might is staggering, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Imperium has a lot more human-coin to spend than it does materiel.
05-12-14 01:44 AM
Phoebus Wait a second.

It is a stated fact that the Imperium has lost the capability to produce certain engines, certain weapons, and even certain vehicles and starships. That is a given.

And yes, it is also a stated fact that the Adeptus Mechanicus makes it so that it's a very long and difficult process for new designs, etc., to be approved. See, for instance, the Lucius-pattern Baneblades.

That having been said, I'm pretty sure that the Imperium isn't unable to produce the overwhelming majority of the war materiel it needs. Its manufacturing/industrial base has ensured that a military force responsible for the protection of roughly a million planets has, by and large, been adequately equipped for ten millennia. We're not talking about a force barely able to march to war or lacking even guns in necessary quantities, like the Czarist forces of World War One, either. We're talking about a largely mechanized force that almost always deploys as a "combined arms" army, with artillery, armor, etc. A force that always arrives by way of interstellar transport.

The limitation of the Imperial Guard never seems to have been the Imperium's unwillingness or inability to outfit it with tanks, artillery, gunships, or what have you. Its only two real hindrances have been:

1. The Warp, which wreaks havoc with the modes of transportation and communication that the Imperium fundamentally relies on... since it also happens to be Hell, and is the stronghold/essence of the very powers that want to see the Imperium destroyed.

2. The fact that the dystopian existence that Man exists in seems to pervert sanity and reason, and ensures that individuals with little to no concern for human life rise to power.

This has led to a military where advanced technology is hindered by pointless superstition and ritual, is wasted on often archaicaly obsolete and self-defeating tactics, and is utilized by frothing madmen waving holy books and chainsaws. I have yet, however, to see a Codex or a book say something as blunt as "The Imperium can't create enough Valkyries, Leman Russes, Chimeras, Hydras, etc., for the Imperial Guard." I'm not saying such a statement doesn't exist anywhere... I'm just saying I would be shocked if that were the case.
05-11-14 06:22 PM
Demon of Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by hailene View Post
How does this change the equation for the Imperium's war machine?

It has bodies. Despite its best intentions, its ability to manufacture advanced weapons is limited.

So the Tyranids may be able to create more soldiers than the Imperium. All right. So how does this change the Imperium's materiel shortage?

If anything needs to be changed, I figure it's the Mechancius's approach to technology. Toss out the machine spirit stuff and have them learn the scientific method, I think the Imperium would be in business.
yeah but the iron men crap scared the piss out of everyone and scarred humanity for life. using scientific method would work since some of the stuff the mechanicum have was made bia scientfic method like that insanely powerful ship that one shotted an eldar cruiser in a gravtational disturbance with pixel perfect laser accuracy. With chrono canons
05-11-14 06:10 PM
hailene
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon of Humanity View Post
regardless this has limits since tyranids among others have more bodies a lot more bodies than imperium and they use your bodies to make more of there bodies.
How does this change the equation for the Imperium's war machine?

It has bodies. Despite its best intentions, its ability to manufacture advanced weapons is limited.

So the Tyranids may be able to create more soldiers than the Imperium. All right. So how does this change the Imperium's materiel shortage?

If anything needs to be changed, I figure it's the Mechancius's approach to technology. Toss out the machine spirit stuff and have them learn the scientific method, I think the Imperium would be in business.
05-11-14 04:58 PM
darkreever
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon of Humanity View Post
New weapons and tactics will be needed and soon. a weapon is powerful but its paper weight with no one to use it.
And soon?

While the turn of the millenium is vetted as the end times for the Imperium its certainly not going to happen overnight. The Imperium has largely been surviving as it has for ten thousand years, and thats despite everything that has happened (and remember that in that time the Imperium has made some gains to offset some of their losses.)

Also, all things considered the Imperial Guard isn't really trained that badly. By and large they are equipped with gear and weapons that are extremely durable and reliant, and in some cases do not require a lot of training before being able to use effectively. Keep in mind that there are thousands upon thousands of worlds in the Imperium which contribute soldiers, all with different kinds of training. Some might be poorly trained or led by less than competent leaders but that is not all of them.
05-11-14 04:46 PM
Demon of Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by hailene View Post
Er, sorry. I made the last post sorta half awake. I forgot to make my point, haha.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make yesterday is that to the Imperium, the tools of war is vastly more important than the people. It's very easy to replace the men. The Imperium has incredible amounts of man power to draw upon. It's ability to manufacture new weapons is, relatively, limited.
Yeah i know soviet era way of thinking. regardless this has limits since tyranids among others have more bodies a lot more bodies than imperium and they use your bodies to make more of there bodies. something the imperium can't do that with its enemies.

New weapons and tactics will be needed and soon. a weapon is powerful but its paper weight with no one to use it.
05-11-14 04:38 PM
hailene
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon of Humanity View Post
as for leman russ and other techs lasting centuries well that says a lot not flashy but built to fucking last.
Er, sorry. I made the last post sorta half awake. I forgot to make my point, haha.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make yesterday is that to the Imperium, the tools of war is vastly more important than the people. It's very easy to replace the men. The Imperium has incredible amounts of man power to draw upon. It's ability to manufacture new weapons is, relatively, limited.

The Imperial Guard isn't perfect, but it does its best to utilize its abundant resource (man power) while trying to get the most out of its limited resource (materiel).
05-11-14 11:16 AM
Demon of Humanity Oh i don't underestimate the guard with competent commander and decent training they can do wonders. Still thats not the case for many regiments.

as for leman russ and other techs lasting centuries well that says a lot not flashy but built to fucking last.
05-11-14 05:56 AM
hailene
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon of Humanity View Post
They kinda need it. Since the IG is the main warforce they need everything they can get meatshielding won't work for long
You don't realize how terribly the man-power to materiel ratio is slanted in the Imperium. Even the "common" stuff, like Leman Russ tanks can see centuries of service before breaking down.

Think of the time span that encompasses. A Russ that has seen 250 years of service today would pre-date the United States Revolutionary War!

And then the BIG things. Like terminator armor, Baneblades, titans, and battleships. Those things can predate the Imperium. 10,000 years. More than our total current recorded history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by COMPNOR View Post
That would require better trained Imperial Guard, which defeats the whole purpose of the IG.
People always underestimate the Guard. The Guard is literally the finest trained and equipped soldiers of a planet. They're the cream of the crop.
05-11-14 01:03 AM
COMPNOR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon of Humanity View Post
They kinda need it. Since the IG is the main warforce they need everything they can get meatshielding won't work for long
Seems to have worked for ~10,000 years.

Don't get me wrong, I somewhat agree, but that goes back to my original point of needing better training. I can see elite units getting the cool kit, but when you rove around the stars, scooping up thousands and throwing a rifle in their hands, fancy power armor isn't going to make a hell of a difference.
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