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  Topic Review (Newest First)
03-10-14 09:12 AM
MidnightSun I'm just trying to get the message across that 40k is not a suitable game for tournaments in it's current iteration. I probably have been a little overzealous, and I apologize for that, but the sooner people realise that the rules are a tool, not gospel, the better, in my opinion.

Yes, tournament players buy models, because they need to buy the new flavour of the month. But they do not make up the majority, and they don't buy the whole range. Tournament players don't shift all those boxes of Thousand Sons and Dark Talons and Tankbustas. They're most definitely a minority, and they're negligible in some areas (never seen anyone buy The Hobbit, let alone any tournament-goers).

Interesting to note that it's different in your area. The big spenders in my area are the ones with 80,000 points of Eldar or full Heresy-era Companies, and they're most certainly not competitive players (one dude bought a Harridan, for god's sake).
03-10-14 12:51 AM
LukeValantine Once again this is a baseless assumption. Going by the numbers in my local gaming center a fair percentage of sales come from that bitchy minority of tournament gamers. GW however has always stated that they envision themselves as a table top miniature company first. So their primary investment isn't in fluff or balancing the game, but making new and interesting models.

Ultimately the hobby has always had and most likly always will have a fairly equal divide between competitive, artistic, and natively inspired gamers, and in all honesty your elites attitude of late makes you no better then those you have been riling against. Personally I think everyone has a right to talk about the hobby in the way they see fit.
03-08-14 11:36 PM
MidnightSun And you enjoy that kind of scenario, and far be it from me to tell you how you should enjoy your hobby. Many people like going to tournaments to fight Screamerstar and Taudar and whatever else is good on the tournament scene this month. Many others write pages upon pages of fluff and play because 40k is a pretty good way to socialise with like-minded people and do some funny shit.

However, most people don't go to tournaments, and GW will cater to the paying majority over the bitchy minority.
03-08-14 11:02 PM
Sethis @MidnightSun how often do you attend competitive tournaments? Because what you seem to describe as your local play area is non-optimal lists playing against other non-optimal lists. In which case the game is perfectly fine because no-one is actively trying to break it. It's also a great way to have fun with friends and is something I enjoy doing myself - I don't have any illusions about there being a "best" way to play.

At the sharp end, like the ETC team Scotland tournament event I just went to (which itself probably wasn't "hardcore" since there were non-competitive lists there) then you have serious, serious problems with 6th Edition. To the tune of ~50% Daemon players, ~20% Tau players and ~20% Eldar/Dark Eldar players with the last ~10% being made up of random Space Marine stuff. Hell, I was playing a relatively competitive Serpent Spam list and still got hammered twice, tabled three people, and had a close-fought loss against Tau that was entirely down to simply hiding my Jetbikes until the final turn while he wiped the rest of my army off the table almost entirely unopposed.
03-08-14 11:00 PM
MidnightSun
Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeValantine View Post
-Personal experience does not equal empirical fact. In general tournament performance some army optimal builds due tend to shit kick other optimized armies, this is why some armies have disappeared in competitive play all together. However, the gap between these competitive armies is not overly noticeable.
In competitive play? You mean when nobody brings any melee units, and nobody's ever even heard of terrain? Yeah, then shooting armies dominate. Quel surprise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeValantine View Post
-Over generalization, some armies can't against competent opponents using effective armies unless they simply luck out. Try playing a orcs against a competent tau list and you will see the potential for a disconnect between skill and army composition.
I would, but the number of people who both want to play with ubar-omg lists and are also competent players is vanishingly small.

Most people, and I mean a large majority, play games because they're fun. And in my experience, it's a minority of people who have fun by buying models they don't like to pay to play in tournaments against a set of three or four lists that you'll know inside out before you go.

A great Tau list being used by a great player is a rare thing indeed. Most people don't want to run a great list, because most of them are fairly annoying or unattractive. Secondly are the constraints of the real world. How many people do you know who have the disposable income, time, and inclination to build and paint three or four Riptides? Or Heldrakes? I have a limited amount of money and I want to spend it on pretty toys that I will enjoy building and painting, as well as playing with.

In internet-land, all the cool kids bring 3 Riptides and Farsight Bomb and Screamerstar and Serpent Spam and Cronair. In real life, there's a vanishingly small number of people have the models to run these lists, and they don't want to. I think I've pushed the point enough and am now rambling, so I'll stop there.
03-08-14 10:42 PM
LukeValantine I generally agree with everything you said but....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post

They make money out of an imbalanced game. It's reasonably balanced, to an extent, but to make it as balanced as chess would require a lot of effort.
- 40k was never meant to be overly balanced as imbalances are built into it to motivate people to buy models and change army compositions with the edition changes. Gamesworkshop is a business, and I am sure they are smart enough to realize that a perfectly or even well balanced game would eventually become static as most people would opt to use army compositions and strategies they are comfortable with rather then spending 300 dollars at codex launch to try a new army that they haven't mastered. (And lets face it these impulse buyers are the real economic force behind the hobby).

The number of people who complain about imbalance in 40k is far, far smaller than the number of people who are ok with it. If you do a survey on the internet and a survey of actual, tangible 40k players at your FLGS, you'll get two totally different sets of results.
-I actually did do a survey in my local gaming center and 25% Felt the game was imbalanced, 30% thought it could use some minor changes, and the remaining 45% were satisfied with the game as it was out of n=20. So in my gaming center at least its pretty much 50 50 in how people view the game.


Do they need to? Every Chaos player buys the Codex as it is. Competitive players buy lots of Heldrakes and Noise Marines, and the other 80% of the customer base buys the models they want to buy.
-Actually there was a large minority of CSM players that abandondoned the army or temporarily left it to play other armies with the edition change. This number is probably none significant though compared to the influx of new hobbyists that picked up the army with the new edition.


Most games are pretty balanced - the Eldar/Tau player loses a lot more than everyone else, and the rest of us are fairly equal in W:D:L (in order, it'd probably go falcoso's Necrons at the top, then my Orks or DA, then the Chaos, but it'd be so close as to be essentially indistinguishable).
-Personal experience does not equal empirical fact. In general tournament performance some army optimal builds due tend to shit kick other optimized armies, this is why some armies have disappeared in competitive play all together. However, the gap between these competitive armies is not overly noticeable.


If you play how the internet tells you to play, then Tau and Eldar dominate. If you play how you're good at playing, then you'll do really well.
-Over generalization, some armies can't against competent opponents using effective armies unless they simply luck out. Try playing a orcs against a competent tau list and you will see the potential for a disconnect between skill and army composition.

That'd be a really good way of pleasing the 20% of the community who play competitively and think that OMG 40K SO IMBA. It'd really piss off the 80% who are fine with 40k as it is.
-Once again these numbers are just a personal creation to support your argument
Having said all this I do have to agree that the air of negativity on the forum and the hobby in general is none productive, and should really be minimized where possible.
03-08-14 09:35 PM
MidnightSun
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
Maybe I was exaggerating, but really, is it acually fair that there's only 2 real options to dealing with fliers? Your own, or an aegis line?
Hyperios Missile Launchers are pretty good since Fast Attack's a fairly empty slot, and Sabre Weapons Platforms in allied Guard are second to none.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
My local gw narrows it down to... Build you army around killing them, or build your army around hiding from them...
There's no real middle ground, a single guad gun is not very good at bringing down a flier... At least not before it's done siginaifant damage.
That's true in most cases (while the Quad-Gun can kill most Flyers in the rules in one volley, in reality the only Flyers ever seen are the Stormraven, Heldrake, Night Scythe and Vendetta; Night Scythes are very vulnerable but there's usually a bunch of them, leaving just the Stormraven, Drake and Vendetta, which are AV12 and therefore the Quad-Gun struggles), but that's like saying one Lascannon isn't very good at bringing down a Land Raider. Well, of course it isn't, but if you only bring one Lascannon then you should expect to have trouble with AV14.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
Perhaps limiting a fliers range, make it so they can't shoot within a 6" bubble of them? Unless hovering, So they can't shoot directly down onto stuff? Make it easier to hide from them, unless they make them selves vulnerable...
On top of the existing Flyer movement restrictions? You trying to invalidate all the Flyers that aren't the Big Three, son?

On a side note, you might not be playing with the rules 100% correctly - Flyer guns have a 22.5 degree arc downwards, so there essentially is a zone underneath them where they cannot shoot. The exceptions are the Doom Scythe and Heldrake, but Stormravens and Vendettas and whatever actually have a fairly large swathe in front of them which they cannot shoot. Particularly the Stormraven's turret, as it's already so high up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
And sure... An Out flanking AV13 wall is good... But it can't deal with riptides very well, an assault cannon will take a while to bring one down... Or a lascannon for that matter...
Son, you need yourself some Devastators. Or combat. Riptides hate combat. Tau in general hate combat. Stormravens too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
I'm just saying that simple fixes really Arnt that hard, why have an FAQ set up if you just say we don't give a rats arse about the rules? If they don't care, why even have different editions?
Honestly, I don't know why they FAQ some stuff (Invasion Beams, Heldrake weapon mount, Kill Zones). Other things, it's to clarify problems and reduce time arguing/increase time playing and having fun, which is great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
They could make money out of a balanced game...
They make money out of an imbalanced game. It's reasonably balanced, to an extent, but to make it as balanced as chess would require a lot of effort.

The number of people who complain about imbalance in 40k is far, far smaller than the number of people who are ok with it. If you do a survey on the internet and a survey of actual, tangible 40k players at your FLGS, you'll get two totally different sets of results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
Release a codex, see that say the heldrake is OP, FAQ a nerf on it, and buff the spawn perhaps as their lacking, mess it up, spawn are now the new chuck Norris, everyone buys spawn, you've now sold a heldrake and a spawn to every player... Nerf the spawn, buff the chosen, now chosen are uber, everyone buys chosen, nerf said chosen, the codex is now balanced, people buy a bit of everything in the CSM range, and sing your praise for a codex well done. Release next CSM codex, rinse repeat across all lines... That was a simplified process, but the points there, in balancing a codex, you make errors, they could be accidental or deliberate, I don't care as long as they get there in the end, so people shift towards this new 'power unit' and you make sales... Repeat this over and over... I believe this is how LoL makes money on champions...
Do they need to? Every Chaos player buys the Codex as it is. Competitive players buy lots of Heldrakes and Noise Marines, and the other 80% of the customer base buys the models they want to buy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
You have pleased the player base, bring in more people as they don't get their arse wiped every game and so enjoy it...
I play in a community with a bunch of armies between four people, but the main armies are EldarTau (Jetbikes, Wave Serpents and some Wraith units - a Knight and some Guard, usually, but the odd Wraithlord as well; the Tau are a O'mmortal Commander, Fireblade, Crisis, Broadsides with Missiles, Riptide, Fire Warriors, Hammerheads), Necrons (kinda-Iron Curtain, two Annihilation Barges and a Ghost Ark, Night Scythe with dudes, mix-n-match army of Warriors, Immortals, Deathmarks, Scarabs - ask @falcoso for more information), Chaos (Cultists, Noise Marines, CSM in Rhinos, Heldrake, Nurgle Obliterators), and my Dark Angels and Orks (DA are Deathwing Knights/Hammernators with Tactical/Devastator support and a Mortis Dreadnougth; Orks are two 30-man blobs of Sluggas with allied Painbosses, 2 Battlewagons, 40 Shoota Boyz, Void Shield Generators, and a Nobstar).

Most games are pretty balanced - the Eldar/Tau player loses a lot more than everyone else, and the rest of us are fairly equal in W:D:L (in order, it'd probably go falcoso's Necrons at the top, then my Orks or DA, then the Chaos, but it'd be so close as to be essentially indistinguishable).

The Eldar player is the one getting wiped (usually tabled) in every game. The internet tells falcoso to bring Wraiths and Annihilation Barges and Night Scythes with MSU Warriors/Stormteks. He beats Taudar all the time with Deathmarks and Scarabs and foot Warrior squads. The internet tell the Chaos player to bring loads of Cultists/Noise Marines, Havocs with Autocannons, and 2/3 Heldrakes to compete. He regularly wails on the Tau in melee. The internet tells me to bring Ravenwing Bikers with the Standard of Devastation and that Deathwing Knights are shitty Hammernators. I proceed to tear through all and sundry with Terminators and Tacticals in Rhinos.

If you play how the internet tells you to play, then Tau and Eldar dominate. If you play how you're good at playing, then you'll do really well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
And the updates could be months apart... Have a monthly FAQ where they 'rebalance' each codex in turn, everyone will get there turn eventually (sorry sisters )
It's not that hard, it's a damn site better than going, piss off, let us bathe in more cash!
That'd be a really good way of pleasing the 20% of the community who play competitively and think that OMG 40K SO IMBA. It'd really piss off the 80% who are fine with 40k as it is.
03-06-14 11:04 PM
LukeValantine How else were they going to get rid of all those sisters of battle models they had left over? If they just out and out told people that they hated the army and would never even try to put effort into it then they would be stuck with thousands of unsellable models.
03-06-14 08:24 PM
Mokuren
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
It's fairly obvious GW doesn't consider Sisters to be a real army any more.
Pity no one told me that when I started.
03-06-14 08:23 PM
kiro the avenger! Maybe I was exaggerating, but really, is it acually fair that there's only 2 real options to dealing with fliers? Your own, or an aegis line?
My local gw narrows it down to... Build you army around killing them, or build your army around hiding from them...
There's no real middle ground, a single guad gun is not very good at bringing down a flier... At least not before it's done siginaifant damage.
Perhaps limiting a fliers range, make it so they can't shoot within a 6" bubble of them? Unless hovering, So they can't shoot directly down onto stuff? Make it easier to hide from them, unless they make them selves vulnerable...
And sure... An Out flanking AV13 wall is good... But it can't deal with riptides very well, an assault cannon will take a while to bring one down... Or a lascannon for that matter...
I'm just saying that simple fixes really Arnt that hard, why have an FAQ set up if you just say we don't give a rats arse about the rules? If they don't care, why even have different editions? They could make money out of a balanced game... Release a codex, see that say the heldrake is OP, FAQ a nerf on it, and buff the spawn perhaps as their lacking, mess it up, spawn are now the new chuck Norris, everyone buys spawn, you've now sold a heldrake and a spawn to every player... Nerf the spawn, buff the chosen, now chosen are uber, everyone buys chosen, nerf said chosen, the codex is now balanced, people buy a bit of everything in the CSM range, and sing your praise for a codex well done. Release next CSM codex, rinse repeat across all lines... That was a simplified process, but the points there, in balancing a codex, you make errors, they could be accidental or deliberate, I don't care as long as they get there in the end, so people shift towards this new 'power unit' and you make sales... Repeat this over and over... I believe this is how LoL makes money on champions...
You have pleased the player base, bring in more people as they don't get their arse wiped every game and so enjoy it...
And the updates could be months apart... Have a monthly FAQ where they 'rebalance' each codex in turn, everyone will get there turn eventually (sorry sisters )
It's not that hard, it's a damn site better than going, piss off, let us bathe in more cash!
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