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Thread: Why is it frowned on to tailor a list against a specific opponent? Reply to Thread
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  Topic Review (Newest First)
11-03-13 11:06 PM
King Gary A lot of the issues people have seem to be coming back to the manner in which players go about changing or tailoring lists. The fact of the matter is, in a small, tight-knit group of players if no one ever changed their lists then the game would stagnate and potentially become very boring indeed.

Surely it is natural to want to win at a war game? Isn't that precisely the point? If you just want to have fun with friends then go watch a couple of epesodes of Archer or Arrested Development, or even some funny cat videos on youtube. By playing 40k or any other sort of game for that matter, there's the added element of competition. And that's where it's possible for problems to occur, because for some people, with terrible social skills, the competition can take over their entire experience and this can sour the experience for others.

Be competitive, change your list, try and kick as much ass as you can possibly manage, and enjoy it. Don't try and play inside other players' heads, countering their every move and unit choice, doing this will leave you wide open to some very easy counters yourself. Instead, take well thought out, logical steps to give you the best chance at beating your opponent. You might win convincingly one week, but the choices you made should encourage your opponent to be better prepared themselves next time.
11-03-13 06:37 PM
Firewolf >> I knew 1 dude who wrote a new list for every game, cos we tended to let others know what we would be using. Really got on my, and other players wick, so got to a stage of saying "Im using x", up until the night before the game, and then change to y. A few tweaks to a list i can handle, but complete list changes piss me off.
11-03-13 04:22 PM
venomlust
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iraqiel View Post
Whilst I agree with Silens personally, it is pretty clear that this has highlighted the two mindsets on the matter, and we are really just arguing two sides of a coin.

Venom, pick your side. Play for fun with your friends, and if they don't play the way you like and you can't convince them to change their minds, perhaps find a gaming club nearby. It doesn't mean that you stop playing with friends, but it does mean that you get some games in an environment where you won't feel bad for bringing a list appropriate to the circumstances to a game.
I have no big concerns. It's really just a couple of armies that I'd have to change up my list for. The rest I'd be happy throwing my "all comers" list at and making the best of it. Goal #1 is to have fun with my friends, which happens every game no matter what. Even my friend with the T6 army helps me out in every way he can: gives me pointers, reminds me of buffs/psychic powers/etc that can only hurt his army. He wants me to have fun too, and he's a good guy. All the players in my local store are.
11-03-13 02:25 PM
Jdojo18 One way to get around list tailoring is to start a campaign with someone from one of tthe Imperial Armor books. For instance, me and my friend started the one from IA:8 with Orks vs imperial guard and Ravens.

we have no problem bring lots of flamers or tons of machine guns because we both know that if an imperial army were to attack orks, they would bring tons of anti infantry with them. Any commanding officer would know to leave the weapons meant for Daemons behind and to dust off the weapons that are meant to be used on the greenskins.

The scenarios are also very specific on what you can bring through a different force orh chart. On one mission for instance, the orks may only be able to bring 4 troops, 1 elite, and 6 fast attack while the imperial army may be able to bring 6 troops, 4 elites, 2 fast attack, and 1 heavy. It completely changes things up but in a fun way.

Just an idea
11-03-13 01:10 PM
Iraqiel Whilst I agree with Silens personally, it is pretty clear that this has highlighted the two mindsets on the matter, and we are really just arguing two sides of a coin.

Venom, pick your side. Play for fun with your friends, and if they don't play the way you like and you can't convince them to change their minds, perhaps find a gaming club nearby. It doesn't mean that you stop playing with friends, but it does mean that you get some games in an environment where you won't feel bad for bringing a list appropriate to the circumstances to a game.
11-03-13 11:30 AM
Silens
Quote:
Originally Posted by Words_of_Truth View Post
It's meant to be a competitive game though stacking the odds in your favour kind of defeats the point of playing it in the first place imo. I guess it comes down to whether you want to win at all costs or have a friendly competitive enjoyable game.
That's an extreme argument. You and your opponent tailoring against each-other doesn't mean you want to win at all costs. Heck, with some of the weaker codices you might not be able to win at all without tailoring your list.

Me and my friends play to win. We tailor against each other and we do the best we can against each other but that doesn't mean we're not having fun. In fact, because of who we are, we'd likely have less fun playing like two Canadians on either side of a doorway. "You first, eh'?" "No, I insist friend, eh'?" "It's fine, you go before me, eh'?"
11-03-13 11:06 AM
Words_of_Truth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silens View Post
Meta-gaming is a RPG phrase for 'using knowledge your character wouldn't have'.

Who's to say that your army has no idea what's coming for them? What if your the one sneaking up on your opponent and you've scouted them and know exactly what they've got?
It's meant to be a competitive game though stacking the odds in your favour kind of defeats the point of playing it in the first place imo. I guess it comes down to whether you want to win at all costs or have a friendly competitive enjoyable game.
11-03-13 10:43 AM
Silens
Quote:
Originally Posted by Words_of_Truth View Post
I spoke to my friends about this and they agreed that changing your list to deliberately face a specific army is just meta gaming.
Meta-gaming is a RPG phrase for 'using knowledge your character wouldn't have'.

Who's to say that your army has no idea what's coming for them? What if your the one sneaking up on your opponent and you've scouted them and know exactly what they've got?

If Captain Cato Sicarius sends in a strike team into the heart of a Tyranid hive ship, he's not going to be giving them anti-tank weapons because 'that's meta-gaming'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wusword77
If you're tailoring a list against somebody they most likely won't have any idea you're doing it unless you tell them up front "Hey, I know you play Nids so my new army is gonna be loaded with flamers and anti horde."
Well... Yeah, but you stated outright that the person would either be unable to counter your tailoring or not know about it. I just refuted that, saying that a lot of the time people will try to tailor their lists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wusword77
That's not tailoring, that adapting your list to handle weaknesses it has. The two concepts are not the same.
No, me and my friends will outright tailor our lists to handle with the things we know the others bring. People going up against my Necrons know I like to take flyers, scarabs and immortals so they will take things that are going to be able to defeat my scarabs (Lots of templates, normally), some powerful anti-air stuff usually with interceptor and then things to deal with MEq whilst ignoring most of their own TEq stuff as I've got nothing of that calibre in my army. Likewise, one of my friends runs a forces of the Imperium list (Space Marines and Elysians) and I will take weapons and organise my forces accordingly. We don't just go "Oh, she's taking Scarabs again so I'll throw in a handful of flamers", it's a case of swapping out entire squads and then making the new guys' single job to deal with scarabs.

Quote:
So if I'm not fine with you running anti MEQ, as I play SM, it's bad sportsmanship if you do?
Yep. If you're not okay with it then I won't tailor my list to you. I might take more MEq than normal or run my 'standard' list if I think it will run well against MEq.
11-03-13 09:33 AM
Words_of_Truth I spoke to my friends about this and they agreed that changing your list to deliberately face a specific army is just meta gaming.
11-03-13 07:18 AM
bitsandkits
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen View Post

if in a group of players and where everyone brings a generic list, and your the only one who switches up the combi-weapons from plasma against DW to flamer vs foot orks. You should probably stop doing that.
nonsense, you should tell your generic list bringing friends to man up and start tweaking and stop half assed list building or suffer the consequences.



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