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Thread: Who wins the Long Game? Reply to Thread
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  Topic Review (Newest First)
08-19-13 02:19 AM
BlackGuard Keep in mind that the Tyranids aren't here to stay. To my understanding, they have come from another galaxy, once that they've already scoured of all life. Even if they do destroy the Milky Way, they will simply move on.

So whomever survives their passing will be inheritors of the Galaxy. That may well mean the Chaos Legions, the Necrons, maybe even a few crafty Eldar and certainly the Dark Eldar. Humanity, Orks, and Tau may not be so fortunate.
08-18-13 01:51 AM
Serpion5
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Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
It's simple physics, everything decays given enough time. Sure that time could be billions upon billions of years, but it will still happen. Given a sufficient period of time any act, however improbable, can be considered guaranteed. The death of the C'tan is highly improbable so clearly it will require a very long period of time to be considered guaranteed, but it will still happen.
How can you claim this as a certainty? The c'tan are cited as being tied to the very fabric of the universe and therefore nigh impossible to destroy. I could argue that their death won't occur until the universe itself finally collapses because there is no naturally occurring phenomenon capable of ending their existence.

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Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
My question again would be: is that a loss? I don't think we can say that losing influence over the material realm is something that Chaos would be overly concerned with.
Well it certainly isn't a lasting victory over the materium is it?
08-17-13 05:19 PM
MEQinc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpion5 View Post
Whether or not a period of calm actually reduces their power, it does seem to have an effect on how much they in turn influence the materium. I put forth that while their power is constant, their reach is directly tied to the flow of emotion at any given time period. For example, Slaanesh had little to zero reach in the time before his birth since the eldar were the first to practice hedonism on a large enough scale to make his power truly felt in the Materium. We have no direct references to anything much earlier than that, but I would presume the other gods felt similar limitations during their own first reaches into our universe.
That's a pretty solid theory, and one I agree with.

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My point being, if the source of their power is reduced (such as by an all consuming galactic predator or a race of genocidal alien machines) I believe such limitations could in time affect them again. Even if not completely, enough for someone else to gain the final advantage and take it will be all they need.
My question again would be: is that a loss? I don't think we can say that losing influence over the material realm is something that Chaos would be overly concerned with.

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Warp Gods have died before.
Indeed they have. But the Chaos Gods have not. The Eldar pantheon is a different beast from Chaos, what holds true for one does not necessarily hold true for the other.

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But that's irrelevant, as I said death is not required for a race to have lost.
It's not required but certainly death does equal a loss. I'm not denying that another faction could claim victory, possibly for a very long period of time but eventually they will all die.

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And you're assuming that the other races WILL die when you cannot confirm this. We have ONE example of a c'tan dying under extrenuous circumstances, an occurrence that had never happened before or since. Because of that do you then take it as a guarantee that all of them will eventually die as well?
It's simple physics, everything decays given enough time. Sure that time could be billions upon billions of years, but it will still happen. Given a sufficient period of time any act, however improbable, can be considered guaranteed. The death of the C'tan is highly improbable so clearly it will require a very long period of time to be considered guaranteed, but it will still happen.

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Well to be fair, the followers and daemons are who I was actually referring to and I said that a few times. You brought the gods into it.
Well to be fair, your OP just refers to Chaos and mentions both the Gods and their followers, which is at least a little ambiguous.
08-17-13 01:33 AM
Serpion5
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
But is that a loss? The Chaos Gods have repeatedly shown themselves to be more interested in their own War than in the fate of the material realm. Does limiting their influence on the material realm (and for the record we don't really know how limited their influence was in the periods you mention) actually reduce their power?
We know that the Chaos Gods were linked to the current turbulence in the warp, as their power is dependent on the flow of emotion. The Warp was described as calm during the Old Ones' reign, and for a time when Mankind was expanding his empire through the stars. The main support for this is that they have zero mention during the War in Heaven and that Mankind was able to travel the warp relatively safely enough to colonize the galaxy.

Whether or not a period of calm actually reduces their power, it does seem to have an effect on how much they in turn influence the materium. I put forth that while their power is constant, their reach is directly tied to the flow of emotion at any given time period. For example, Slaanesh had little to zero reach in the time before his birth since the eldar were the first to practice hedonism on a large enough scale to make his power truly felt in the Materium. We have no direct references to anything much earlier than that, but I would presume the other gods felt similar limitations during their own first reaches into our universe.

My point being, if the source of their power is reduced (such as by an all consuming galactic predator or a race of genocidal alien machines) I believe such limitations could in time affect them again. Even if not completely, enough for someone else to gain the final advantage and take it will be all they need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
Everything else in the race can die. Given sufficient time everything that can die will. Therefore given sufficient time the Chaos Gods will be the only player left standing. If everyone else is dead, haven't they lost? If everyone else has lost, haven't you won?
Warp Gods have died before. But that's irrelevant, as I said death is not required for a race to have lost. And you're assuming that the other races WILL die when you cannot confirm this. We have ONE example of a c'tan dying under extrenuous circumstances, an occurrence that had never happened before or since. Because of that do you then take it as a guarantee that all of them will eventually die as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
I think it's a mistake to conflate the Gods and their followers in this case.
Well to be fair, the followers and daemons are who I was actually referring to and I said that a few times. You brought the gods into it.
08-16-13 03:42 PM
son of azurman The way I see it is chaos defeats man.man being cause for the gods minus Spanish means chaos is practically out.tyranids consume all organic matter and move on.necrons being the last ones alive simply go back into slumber.
This theory has lots of errors in it but this was how I was tought it 4 years ago skive just kept by it for the most part
08-16-13 03:13 PM
MEQinc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpion5 View Post
The Chaos Gods don't care enough though to make that kind of direct assault. Which means it's up to their servants and mortal followers, warriors and slaves who CAN be defeated. The Chaos Gods' power is only as strong as the flow of emotion allows.
1) The last time someone threatened Chaos, what did they do? Steal his sons, destroy everything he built, effectively kill him and remake his Empire in their image. If Chaos feels threatened, they will intervene.
2) As you say, the Gods don't care much about the material realm. Thus, can any defeat there be considered as 'loss' for them? If it isn't important to them, then it isn't a loss to loose it.

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The argument here seems to be that the gods themselves need to be killed for them to not count as contenders. This isn't the case. As you said, the c'tan can be breached and scattered, this doesn't necessarily mean they're dead but it does place them in a position where they cannot affect the scales to anywhere near the same degree as if they were still in necrodermis shell. Do you see?
But can the Gods be compromised to a similar degree? A C'tan without its necrodermis is almost completely powerless, a God without lots of emotion is simply hungry. Is a hungry foe a defeated one? A starving animal is at its most dangerous.

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By lasting victory, I mean holding the lion's share of the galaxy at large. For Chaos, this would mean their servants have the biggest holdings, perpetuating war death and whatever else the gods want on a galactic scale.
I think it's a mistake to conflate the Gods and their followers in this case. The followers of Chaos are obviously fairly concerned with the material realm, and their fate is directly tied to it. I would call a victory for the mortal forces of Chaos unlikely. However, the Gods themselves don't need their followers to win. It doesn't matter one lick to them who is perpetuating war, etc. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows and all that. It's the same mistake that leads to people calling the Horus Heresy a loss for Chaos, when it clearly wasn't.

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You're arguing the gods cannot be killed makes them automatic winners, but keep in mind that they held very little sway in the time before the War in Heaven and for a long time after. Such a time could easily arise again under the right circumstances.
But is that a loss? The Chaos Gods have repeatedly shown themselves to be more interested in their own War than in the fate of the material realm. Does limiting their influence on the material realm (and for the record we don't really know how limited their influence was in the periods you mention) actually reduce their power? We don't know. Arguably it can't, since they are independent of time. Besides which: Everything else in the race can die. Given sufficient time everything that can die will. Therefore given sufficient time the Chaos Gods will be the only player left standing. If everyone else is dead, haven't they lost? If everyone else has lost, haven't you won?
08-16-13 01:34 PM
Chaplain-Grimaldus
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Originally Posted by Nordicus View Post
The bitterness in this one is strong. It is weekend soon young padiwan, cleanse yourself of such hateful words :D
Yeah been a hard week lol.

On topic, I think Abaddon eventually gets through to terra. It's prophesied.

All the Phoenix lords will die, Dante will have a show down with Abby at the foot of the golden throne.

All die in a horrifying inferno. Then somewhere, someone, starts it all again.
08-16-13 12:41 PM
Nordicus
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Originally Posted by Chaplain-Grimaldus View Post
Who wins? GW stock holders become so rich due to endless price increases they are re Bourne as a god in the warp and defeat chaos through legal means.
The bitterness in this one is strong. It is weekend soon young padiwan, cleanse yourself of such hateful words :D
08-16-13 12:33 PM
Chaplain-Grimaldus Who wins? GW stock holders become so rich due to endless price increases they are re Bourne as a god in the warp and defeat chaos through legal means.
08-16-13 10:34 AM
Serpion5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
Personally, I would write the Necrons off. Their utter reliance on the webway is too much of a handicap.
Possibly, but given the other technologies at their disposal (mainly the Null Field Matrices) I feel that they had enough of an equalising factor to at least be a contender.
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