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Thread: Not So Grim-Dark? Reply to Thread
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  Topic Review (Newest First)
04-25-13 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by Alsojames View Post
Well how many wizards are there other than those level 4s
In game? All Hero level characters, ever, and most Lords. In lore? Pretty much all Mages are level 1 and 2, with a couple level 3s and then a very small class of level 4s (usually only those with both great magical aptitude and decades, if not centuries of experience are level 4, with powerful wizards such as college leaders being mostly level 3, maybe edging into 4 if they're really shit hot).

04-24-13 01:32 PM
Dave T Hobbit
Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
If you look at what L4 is....
The fluff scale and the game scale are different measures: game Lvl measures only the ability to function on a battlefield. Teclis, the Slaan, &c. have immense power to do other non-battlefield magics and rituals, some well beyond the ability of a normal wizard, but that does not mean that a relatively common - for wizards - wizard cannot be in the top 25% of battlefield magic users as well.

Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
These are once in a generation paragons: however they are trotted out in every game (and manage to blow themselves up in every game).
The number of special characters who turn up to every tiny battle is unrealistic. It also takes the fun out of killing them if you can do it more than once in each a tournament.
04-23-13 04:48 PM
Vaz If you look at what L4 is, you have Slann (around ~50-100 at most). These have had millenia to perfect their arts learned direct from a gods writings. Teclis is the greatest mage ever seen since Dragontamer even without his items and he has had a hundred or years in the most magical of nations. An elven prophetess to an entire nation of humans. The HEAD of the complete colleges of wizardry. A dragon possessed by a greater daemon of change and consequently magic. A vampire of unimaginable power risen from the dead. A vampire taught by nagash teachings, and the teachings of one third hand to nagash's influence and who enslaved a dragon to his will. An immortal who was taught by nagash himself.

These are once in a generation paragons: however they are trotted out in every game (and manage to blow themselves up in every game).

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04-23-13 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post

However, for the same reason, I dislike the current Fantasy meta (c'mon, how many Wizards in the fluff are Level 4? They're supposed to be rare and vastly powerful, not a dime a dozen).

Well how many wizards are there other than those level 4 characters?
04-22-13 06:20 PM
MidnightSun 'An Ogre trusts his club, and will only eat it in the direst of circumstances'. Rhinoxen Lifting. Hell, Ogres in general.

Fantasy won't be grimdark so long as there are Ogres in the fluff.

I really like the fluff for Fantasy as it feels like battles are profound due to the world being just that; a world, not an entire galaxy. However, for the same reason, I dislike the current Fantasy meta (c'mon, how many Wizards in the fluff are Level 4? They're supposed to be rare and vastly powerful, not a dime a dozen).

Characters in Fantasy also mean more to me in lore as there is more 'you' in your character - in 40k, I'll take a Librarian with Mastery 2, Divination/Telepathy, and Terminator Armour if I'm running Deathwing. This appears to be the standard loadout that Company Masters everywhere give to their Librarians, often 2 to a strike force. Fantasy, I can run even just a Bruiser as a tank (Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Dragonhelm, Talisman of Endurance), a challenger (Giantbreaker, Heavy Armour, Brace of Ogre Pistols), a unit-killer (Sword of Bloodshed and Enchanted Shield), pretty much however I want, and he'll have a story - unlike 40k, he's not just another dude in another army. This makes the setting less grimdark and a little more personal - faceless Guardsmen die, that's a statistic. My Tyrant dies? That's a tragedy.

04-22-13 05:25 PM
Alsojames Personally I like the WFB fluff better. Dunno. I just like swordfights better than gunfights.
02-18-13 12:23 PM
Gromrir Silverblade Good points Black Guard and I totally agree. Most of the Empire novels in fantasy are fairly bleak encounters where there are crap resources in somewhere that has seen better days that has to take on superhuman enemies to stop the whole Empire falling. Most of the time it comes down to one person doing something who usually ends up dying anyway.

Although I'm sure Gaunt would disagree with me, I'm pretty sure the actions of one guardsman mean diddly squat. Let's say he manages to save the day...In one battle...On one world...In one star system against one of the myriad enemies of the Imperium. I love the guard for being that one man who takes on everything with a laser pointer and a t-shirt but he's not really going to achieve much.
02-16-13 03:39 AM
BlackGuard Good points all. Another thing occured to me when I read through the Daemons of Chaos Army book -- there is no where else to go.

In 40k, yes the average citizen is pretty much hide bound to his planet and usually to his work zone/district. But at the end of the day the Imperium has 1 million worlds between it and extinction.

If you think about it -- Fantasy has no where to go. If a Daemonic Incursion the size of the Warp Gate Rifts on the poles happened in 40k -- there would be Exterminatus declared and the entire ordeal concluded.

In Fantasy they can't do that. There is no leaving and all the arcane magic in the world cannot close those rifts. So if you look at it that way, and the fact that Chaos cannot ever be truly defeated -- the entire world is simply living on borrowed time.

I also suppose Fantasy has a more personal aspect to it. In 40k we regularly see millions die, or even billions in the span of three sentances. We don't feel much empathy and these lives become statistics. Who cares if 100 billion people die screaming ... in an Imperium of 500 trillion or so. If 200,000 people die screaming in Fantasy -- it would likely be a huge ordeal.
02-15-13 11:49 PM
Turnip86 I'm a fantasy player at heart and while I read 40k novels and even started by playing 40k I always end up back in the fantasy setting.

On the outside fantasy doesn't seem as dark but if you scratch the surface and read into stuff or even just let your imagination go it's actually a very dark setting. I think the main reason people don't see it as being as dark as 40k is that there's more of a comedy element to fantasy which is actually pushed more by the players building themed armies rather than devs purposely pushing it in that direction. That said, even the comedy elements have a darker side.

The Empire vs Chaos is what most people immediately think of in fantasy and even that's pretty dark when you think of secret chaos worshippers and the threat of witch hunts. Also with the empire covered mostly in forest it's only really the larger settlements that are in anyway safe and even they have skaven living underneath ready to pour out at any time.

40k seems darker I think because you don't really think too much about people's lives in general whereas fantasy is set in a world where war has a direct effect on peoples lives as in their jobs and homes - in 40k it's never really put into the narrative so it's JUST war, you don't see the 'everyday people' and therefore it's darker
02-15-13 07:27 PM
Tim/Steve I think 40k is a much more engaging reality and the nature of sci-fi and action makes it much more attractive. I much prefer the fluff and novels from 40k... but I think fantasy is a much better game to play.

Having said that there are certainly some aspects to the fantasy fluff which are legendary and really grab the attention.
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