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Thread: Do the Thousand Sons even know? Reply to Thread
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  Topic Review (Newest First)
08-07-12 11:15 AM
forkmaster Well I've re-read Fulgrim once time recently and on page 320, there is a envoy sent to Fulgrim, notifying that shortly after the events of False Gods (when Magnus broke the edict) and shortly before Isstvan III, Galaxy in flames, Russ were sent to bring Magnus back to Terra. It was on Macladores orders btw.

As I understand it, it was Horus who told the Emperor/Malcadore "Hey Magnus broke the rules, punish him!" But then we have The Outcast Dead, who according to the book takes place during the end and after Fulgrim, its then Magnus broke through the Emperor's defenses.

According to Swallow, the time-difference is because the Emepror fought back to stop Magnus and then we have a time dialation-difference. So Magnus realises once he reaches the Emperor its already too late, Horus is a traitor and the Wolves are coming for him.

McNeill has said this will be explained in a later novel, kinda like The Outcast Dead explained why Curze were at Isstvan V despite The Dark King, and The Lion explained the ending of Fallen Angels.

Also from my understanding, Magnus realized he had done Tzeentchs bidding all this time and just went for it, he had lost everything and this was his only chance of survival. And I think Tzeentch then said "Go with Horus!"

Edit: Also on page 506 of Fulgrim it says "Following the Warmasters misdirection of Leman Russ, the Space Wolves were known to be operating in the region of Prospero...."
08-06-12 09:22 PM
Over Two Meters Tall!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostle View Post
'Russ was convinced by Horus' silver tongue to launch an all-out planetary assault on the seditious Thousand Sons rather than attempt to negotiate with them or bring their Primarch Magnus the Red back to Terra peacefully. Horus claimed that the Emperor wanted to punish Magnus'

from the wiki. They should change that if some of the above statements are correct. I mean that basically is saying that the Emperor wished for him to be tried for his crimes on Terra, but Horus convinced him the Emperor wanted him killed instead.
I've read a lot of TS fluff, though never had the Codicies, but have still never seen a direct quotation on the Emperor only wanting a trial for Magnus. Magnus's ultimate purpose was to power the Astronimican, as identified by Magnus himself in The Thousand Sons, and he was completely damaged goods for that purpose once the Emp found out he had sold out to Tzeench.
08-06-12 06:28 PM
Apostle 'Russ was convinced by Horus' silver tongue to launch an all-out planetary assault on the seditious Thousand Sons rather than attempt to negotiate with them or bring their Primarch Magnus the Red back to Terra peacefully. Horus claimed that the Emperor wanted to punish Magnus'

from the wiki. They should change that if some of the above statements are correct. I mean that basically is saying that the Emperor wished for him to be tried for his crimes on Terra, but Horus convinced him the Emperor wanted him killed instead.
08-06-12 06:13 PM
Over Two Meters Tall! A constant thread with the TS is, no matter their incidential intentions, they were in league with Tzeench from virtually their conception... literally if the Big E's pact with Chaos was actual. Magnus, then Ahriman, could only turn to Chaos to stop the dramatic explosion of Chaos within their flesh due to their inherint powers.

In A Thousand Sons
From my standpoint, Magnus found himself at the end of a very long and well-established Faustian bargain, not at the start of one. The Emperor knew this as well, and also knew Magnus was utterly compromised to Chaos at this point. The surprise would have been if Russ was sent to Prospero to do less than execute the judgement of Nikea on Magnus.

While most of the information may have come to Ahriman on the cusp of Prospero being destroyed, he also recognized the bargain for what it was and had to go with it. After Ahriman cast the Rubric, the TS don't even have their bodies owed to the Emperor anymore. The Big E, their progenitor/creator, built them with an open invitation to Chaos and their own Father Magnus co-signed the deal. At this point, I can't think of a single reason the TS would isolate themselves from the HH.
08-06-12 01:27 PM
Child-of-the-Emperor
Quote:
Originally Posted by LongfangFenrika93 View Post
I can't figure out why the Thousand Sons fought under Horus after the Fall of Prospero, and then continued to fight, on occasion, for Abaddon in the millennia after.
He's embittered by the Wolves, even if he was originally loyal: the Emperor sent the Wolves against him, (apparently) knowing full well what they would do. The Emperor betrayed Magnus for 'trying to help'. Even the opening monologue in A Thousand Sons comments on Magnus' state: "power such as this once given cannot be returned" or words to that effect.

As AD-B said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AD-B
The problem with stuff like this is that it isn't just black and white. It's not Good and Evil, Pure or Fallen. Thematically, it's the War in Heaven, but it's not the same beyond the theme. The details are wildly different.

Chaos isn't just... Pure Evil. It's not "Magnus was suddenly a bad guy". Like many "villains", he's a guy in a bad place because of bad decisions he - and others- made.

Ultimately, Chaos isn't given enough credit for its subtlety. It offers you a little more, each time, keeping your ultimate goal just out of reach. You get addicted, and think that - for you - it's different. You can master it, because, hey! you seem to be doing okay so far, right? You won't go as far as the other guys. You don't want what they wanted. You only want a little more, just enough to get by. Maybe you'll give it up completely after that. Maybe you don't have anything to do with it at all, right?

You may never even know you're being manipulated. Magnus didn't. You can obviously think you'd be totally aware, but there've been plenty of times in your life you've not been aware you were being manipulated, and it's far, far, far from as simple as "I'd refuse Chaos, because I don't want tentacles, and I'd be aware of it trying to get me."

Well. No, you wouldn't. That's often the point. It's not all about living in the Eye of Terror and hanging out with mutants while screaming dark prayers of dark darkness. Chaos isn't always that blatant or obscene.

Magnus was arrogant and well-intentioned in equal measure. That arrogance and his own good intentions put him in a compromising position. Several compromising positions, in fact. It's not an insult to his character to point out that he was arrogant and thought he understood more than he did. It doesn't make us, as readers, like him any less. All characters have flaws.

Look at Konrad Curze. He's not on Horus's side because he flicks a metal sign and says "Chaos is super awesome." It's the same thing with Magnus. It's a bit more subtle than him just wanting to tear down the Imperium in a sudden "fall" like that trite bullshit we were forced to put up with from Anakin Skywalker, which was executed - at best - suddenly and poorly.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. You still end up in Hell, no matter why you started walking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LongfangFenrika93 View Post
My point is, how the hell did they not know that Horus had tricked Russ into wiping them out, rather than bringing them peacefully back to Terra.
Well we don't know that for ourselves. Prospero Burns certainly doesn't portray a Russ under the impression that he was ordered to bring Magnus peacefully back to Terra. The Emperor's warning at Nikaea in A Thousand Sons also doesn't portray him as unwilling to visit destruction upon those who betray him. The Collected Visions also states that the Emperor wished nothing less than destruction for Prospero and the 'Sons.

Horus did contact Russ, we know that much from False Gods(?) and A Thousand Sons. But did he change the course that Russ had already embarked upon?

What I think we should instead concentrate on is the revelations of Prospero Burns: that Chaos went to great extents to influence both the VI and XV Legions, and was involved in the events that led up to the fall of Prospero.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LongfangFenrika93 View Post
I just find it hard to believe, that the Thousand Sons (and Magnus if he gives a shit) didn't ultimately find out that the nature of their fall and casting as traitors was due to Horus' manipulations.
Was their fall due to Horus' manipulations though? Valdor certainly seems to have had a strong influence on proceedings as Chompy said. But again, it comes down to Chaos' influence and manipulations rather than Horus'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chompy Bits View Post
Currently, as the fluff stands from The Outcast Dead, Horus was already known as a traitor before Magnus sent his message. Which makes him actually being involved extremely unlikely. The likeliest candidate now to have had any influence on Russ' actions is Valdor.
I would love to hear from Graham Mcneill regarding that aspect of The Outcast Dead, I have emailed him myself concerning it but have received no reply - when usually he is actually quite good at replying to fan queries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chompy Bits View Post
Also, I think a possible reason for Magnus' turn was survival. His legion is damned in the eyes of the loyalists and they've been decimated by the Wolves (who still have warriors pursuing them). Maybe becoming allies with Horus was his best shot at making it through the Heresy.
I havn't got a copy of the Collected Visions to hand, but I know it covers Magnus' joining of the Heresy. If anyone can look it up and post the relevant quote it would be appriciated.
08-06-12 12:27 PM
Lost&Damned Ahriman poured everything into the Rune Priest: the corruption
of Horus and the betrayal of everything the Emperor had
sought to create, the monstrous scale of the imminent war and
the horror that lay at the end of it. Win or lose, a time of ultimate
darkness was coming, and as Ahriman opened Wyrdmake to all
that he had seen, he too learned all that had driven the Space
Wolves and the Custodes to make such furious war upon the
Thousand Sons.
He saw the honeyed words of Horus and the sinister urgings of
Constantin Valdor, each spoken with very different purposes,
but designed to sway Leman Russ towards a destination of total
destruction.

quote in the novel thousand sons, regarding what role Valdor played
08-04-12 09:41 PM
Apostle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Commander Solus View Post
[TSons Fanboy Mode]

Woah, now. Magnus was probably the most loyal Primarch, with the most loyal Legion. He was utterly loyal to the Emperor; so much so that he even denied a direct order from the Emperor in order to try and warn him about the betrayal. He could have obeyed the Emperor and not used his powers, and then the Big E may not have been warned about Horus. But so devoted was Magnus to the Emperor that he was prepared to earn his wrath to help and serve him. If that's not loyal I don't know what is.

As for refusing to be killed by Russ... come on, man! Russ starts landing troops everywhere and killing Magnus' Legion and *still* Magnus doesn't get involved. He waits until they've pretty much been screwed over before thundering down and turning on god-mode. If Russ had just made a strike at Magnus, rather than the whole bloody planet first, he may actually have come quietly. Instead, the dirty great Space Wolf decided to raze Prospero and its Legion first to get Magnus upset. He's got the subtlety of a nuclear missile, that one.

[/fanboy]

I've yet to read Prospero Burns, but I'll have to keep a Thousand Sons nearby in case I ever need to brace myself for the heretical anti-TSons propaganda I'm likely to read within.
Read it if not at least for the little fluff on the Thousand Son's it does contain. I am rabidly again Russ and his puppies and all for Magnus and his badass Sorcerer's. But I can't deny that it's one of the best Horus Heresy Novels.
08-04-12 05:43 PM
Lost&Damned @Solus
So loyal that he bargained with warp entities before the heresy (thats how he lost his eye)?

So loyal he went directly against the edicts of Nikea, the Emperor literally spelt it out for him, had a massive meeting with all the top tier of the imperium, his brothers warned him, his adopted farther warned him, not very loyal it seems.

The entire reason he used his powers (if you read the novel a thousand you would know) was because he wanted to prove the Emperor wrong, he wanted to use the fact he would "save" imperium using his psychic powers to overturn the edict of Nikea.

after he had destroyed the webway, imprisoned the emperor on his throne, almost destroyed Terra, threatened the Emperors well-being, obliterated the imperium's future, i think he deserved the ass raping Russ gave him.

there is also another VERY big reason Russ went all out, Russ really didnt want to do it, but its a massive spoiler, it shows why the Emperor was so harsh on magnus and why Russ came like a ton of bricks to Prospero
08-04-12 04:49 PM
Chompy Bits
Quote:
Originally Posted by LongfangFenrika93 View Post
Hunting him through the EoT? I can't imagine many Loyalists making their way to the Planet of the Sorcerers. The problem is though there is that Magnus chose certain damnation by joining Horus, while staying out of the Heresy and manipulating events to possibly save his Legion in the long run would be more logical.
Well, we know Russ sent the 13th Great Company to pursue the Sons. And there isn't a question of being damned by joining Horus. Magnus had already ascended to daemonhood at that stage. He was as damned as you can be in the eyes of the Imperium already. And save what? His legion was already decimated to barely a 1000 warriors by the time he joined Horus, so sitting out and "manipulating events" really wouldn't have gotten him anywhere, except more distrust from others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LongfangFenrika93 View Post
Indirectly it is. If Horus hadn't turned traitor, then the Sons wouldn't have been decimated by the Wolves for the reason they were. Regardless of whether the Sons would have been destroyed later by the flesh-change, or by breaking the Edict of Nikaea, I'm baffled by how quickly they accepted their lot. They may have been fucked before the Heresy, but Horus turning was the actual fucking, so to speak.
Yes, Horus turning influenced what happened to them. But the fact is that Horus could have turned without the Sons falling in the process. It was the arrogance of Magnus that ultimately was their downfall. It was Magnus' choice in the end to disobey the Emperor's decree and use sorcery. And you are also ignoring the fact that chaos had been manipulating both the Wolves and the Sons, for several decades at least, to turn against each other.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LongfangFenrika93 View Post
Running from possible destruction to certain servitude? Isn't much of a bargain there. I don't know I just see the Thousand Sons as smarter than that. They were the only Legion out of 18 that had the broadest understanding of the Immaterium, and they allow themselves to become slaves to a higher power? After centuries of teaching and training in the arts they roll over? Madness.
Serving Tzeentch would in all likelyhood actually have been a far better alternative than being utterly destroyed by the Wolves. A promise of knowledge and power, without the constraints placed on them by the Imperium. Sounds like it could appeal to them. Also, it becomes clear in A Thousand Sons that they might know more than most of the others about the Warp, but that they really only know the bare minimum themselves. Even Magnus only fully realised the true nature of the warp in the end when it was too late to do anything about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LongfangFenrika93 View Post
Why piss off the traitors and sabotage them? Well, the Galaxy was in the predicament it was in because of Horus' fall, and Magnus always held in his teachings that Humanity should be enlightened and cradled and guided and the like. I would have thought, that as a reluctant traitor Magnus would have held true to at least a smidgeon of these teachings? Why hamper a potential ally? Because that potential ally was the reason, directly or indirectly, leading to the Legions almost destruction.

And no return to loyalty or redemption, but vengeance against the main culprits perhaps.
But remember that this isn't the same Magnus who had served the Imperium loyally. He was a broken shell of his former self, who had witnessed brother turn on brother and watched his world and legion burn for his mistakes. Also, like I mentioned earlier, he had already ascended to daemonhood, thus literally becoming a small part of Tzeentch. It's likely that this would have had some impact on his personality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LongfangFenrika93 View Post
There is actually more evidence right now for it being Horus who manipulated the Wolves, since it was actually stated in the earlier Heresy novels, than it being Valdor who, quite frankly, I haven't heard one convincing argument for.
Except like I said, The Outcast Dead changes things so that Horus was already known as a traitor by then. Hell, the Dropsite Massacre occurs within the timeframe of the book. The 7 legion fleet had already been sent to Isstvan when Magnus' warning arrives on Terra. And we know from A Thousand Sons that Valdor did have some influence. Magnus still notes it when he observes the Space Wolf fleet approaching Prospero. And why would Valdor be upset? Magnus not only broke the Nikaea decree (something we know Custodians are really anal about) but endangered the life of the Emperor in doing so (who is really Valdor's sole purpose for existence) and the entire safety of Terra as well. Not only that, but the chances are good that many Custodians died defending the breach Magnus had created from daemons. So there's plenty of reason for Valdor to be pissed.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LongfangFenrika93 View Post
Magnus may well have liked Horus and Lorgar, but after learning that Horus and Lorgar were about to bring the Galaxy to the brink of annihilation, I think he may have reconsidered. And I'm pretty sure that Magnus could do more than simply wait to die.
But he did try to warn Horus when he found out what was going to happen. It didn't work. By the time he learned the whole truth he really was too far gone down the road of damnation to do anything other than what he did.
08-04-12 04:45 PM
Lord Commander Solus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost&Damned View Post
Magnus shed what remaind of his loyalty to the imperium of man and to the Emperor when he refused to be killed by Russ, up till then all his actions were still
[TSons Fanboy Mode]

Woah, now. Magnus was probably the most loyal Primarch, with the most loyal Legion. He was utterly loyal to the Emperor; so much so that he even denied a direct order from the Emperor in order to try and warn him about the betrayal. He could have obeyed the Emperor and not used his powers, and then the Big E may not have been warned about Horus. But so devoted was Magnus to the Emperor that he was prepared to earn his wrath to help and serve him. If that's not loyal I don't know what is.

As for refusing to be killed by Russ... come on, man! Russ starts landing troops everywhere and killing Magnus' Legion and *still* Magnus doesn't get involved. He waits until they've pretty much been screwed over before thundering down and turning on god-mode. If Russ had just made a strike at Magnus, rather than the whole bloody planet first, he may actually have come quietly. Instead, the dirty great Space Wolf decided to raze Prospero and its Legion first to get Magnus upset. He's got the subtlety of a nuclear missile, that one.

[/fanboy]

I've yet to read Prospero Burns, but I'll have to keep a Thousand Sons nearby in case I ever need to brace myself for the heretical anti-TSons propaganda I'm likely to read within.
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