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  Topic Review (Newest First)
11-10-11 02:45 PM
Starship Trooper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra Marine Fan 1980 View Post
I only recommend more stern guards since you're using Kantor. He makes Sternguards scoring units.
This was my first thought as well.
11-09-11 07:34 PM
Ultra Marine Fan 1980
Quote:
Originally Posted by lockeF View Post

@ Ultra Marine Fan 1980
I would like to keep the dread for now, however, I think 10 is too much unless I plan on combat squading them. That's too much bolter fire from one squad, so I will go down to eight. I liked this advice and I overlooked the idea that sometimes too much is overkill.
I only recommend more stern guards since you're using Kantor. He makes Sternguards scoring units.
11-07-11 07:32 PM
lockeF
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenskin View Post
hey, sorry i wrote so much. I had too much time on my hands. I can see the appeal of having 3 different places to reliably teleport your terminators, I would probably still not take all 3 beacons, though. razorbacks might be a good choice, some folks around Heresy will tell you that they are way better than rhinos. you'll have to figure that one out on your own. another area where I might be wrong is the HK missiles. some people say they are too unreliable to be worth their points. I like your idea about adding a landspeeder to this list in exchange for the 2 termies.

(side note: locator beacons and teleport homers are 2 different things. tac squads can only take teleport homers. pods and scout bike squads can only take beacons. the difference is that teleport homers only affect terminators while beacons affect anything that deep strikes, such as a landspeeder.)

as for the models you don't own: Most people agree that assault marines are not worth it (just an extra attack on a squad of marines that can't score) and that assault terminators are the better choice for that role. landraiders are always nice. but they do cost a lot of real-world money.
No worries about the lengthy reply, I found it quite useful. I did not realize that locator beacons and teleport homers were different. In this case I will only be taking the one, possibly two if I find it necessary, on the tactical marines. I decided to cut a tactical squad, it was a lot of basic marines which probably would not result to much. The new list is as follows:

Pedro 175

Tactical Squad 1 185 points: ML and Flamer and homer
TL lascannon razorback
Tactical Squad 2 170: ML and Flamer
TL lascannon razorback

Elites
Dread w/heavy flamer (replacing the storm-bolter on the CC arm) and assault cannon. I still like this set up and find it great at taking out hoards.

Terminators: heavy-flamer, I might switch to the missile-launcher or assault cannon. I have the terminators already built for either. (I actually own 20 terminators from my DA army, all magnetized, so I can definitely add more terminators if that is a sound tactical decision.)

8 stern: lightning claw, 2 combi-melta, drop pod

Heavy:
2 vindicators
1 dakka predator

This actually leaves 415 points to build up the army to 2,000 points. Leaving the only available slots in troops, fast attack, and an HQ. To be fluffy I have a nice Crimson fist captain built and painted along with a command squad but I don't see either as being useful. Plenty of bikes and land-speeders but I am not a fan of space marine bikes and the landspeeders are kinda faulty for ninety points (I only like the ones with missiles). I really appreciate all the input, it really helps. I could add five terminators, combat-squad them. I like that idea.

@ Ultra Marine Fan 1980
I would like to keep the dread for now, however, I think 10 is too much unless I plan on combat squading them. That's too much bolter fire from one squad, so I will go down to eight. I liked this advice and I overlooked the idea that sometimes too much is overkill.
11-07-11 12:32 PM
Ultra Marine Fan 1980 All I was going to say is drop the dread, and one of your Tac Squads, get another Sternguard unit. Oh and btw combi-melta or bust with sternguards. And you don't need a 10 man sternguard squad I'd run 2 7-9Man squads.
11-07-11 04:17 AM
Greenskin hey, sorry i wrote so much. I had too much time on my hands. I can see the appeal of having 3 different places to reliably teleport your terminators, I would probably still not take all 3 beacons, though. razorbacks might be a good choice, some folks around Heresy will tell you that they are way better than rhinos. you'll have to figure that one out on your own. another area where I might be wrong is the HK missiles. some people say they are too unreliable to be worth their points. I like your idea about adding a landspeeder to this list in exchange for the 2 termies.

(side note: locator beacons and teleport homers are 2 different things. tac squads can only take teleport homers. pods and scout bike squads can only take beacons. the difference is that teleport homers only affect terminators while beacons affect anything that deep strikes, such as a landspeeder.)

as for the models you don't own: Most people agree that assault marines are not worth it (just an extra attack on a squad of marines that can't score) and that assault terminators are the better choice for that role. landraiders are always nice. but they do cost a lot of real-world money.
11-06-11 11:12 PM
lockeF
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenskin View Post
Ok, well here's my opinion after giving it a little thought:
A lot of your chosen wargear options are very unusual. this is not necessarily a good thing. there's a reason you don't see two heavy bolters in a SM army. get missiles on those tac squads and if you want some variety sprinkle in melta weapons and P-fists among their ranks depending on how much mech you expect to run into.
you've already pointed out the weakness of your razorbacks--your tac squads can't use them. are you going to combat squad all of them? at 2000 pts, 5-man combat squads will go down like groupies at a led zeppelin concert. I can see the razorspam working out, but remember that 2 dudes can shoot out of rhinos while riding in style to their objective upfield. put HK missles on those puppies and you've got unlimited range missles to make up for the lost firepower of the razors. that said, the razors are not awful, and can stay if you like them a lot. I respect the homage to 2nd edition with the laz-plas-back, but the rules suck for it. for the (high) cost of a TL lascannon, you get a TL plasmagun or a single LC shot, unless you stay still to fire both--waste of a transport.

3 10-man tactical squads is a lot of basic marines running around. A good rule of thumb with SM armies is that you want 1 tac squad per 600 points of army. you have 2000 points, so there is no problem there, but you are also taking 10 sternguard who are scoring units because of Pedro. think about dropping a tactical and getting another predator, or trimming even more fat and investing an a landraider crusader for your termies to ride in with Pedro. And let's talk about those termies...

Your terminator squad of 7 is not optimized to fulfill any particular battlefield role. if you want to run shooty termies, you should really take a cyclone on one of them. they pump out 2x frag or krak missle per turn. you should always take one on shooty terminators. the assault cannon is also a good choice. I dont' have enough experience to speak on the utility of the heavy flamer in a termy squad, but it I can see the potential, and it's a cheap experiment at +5 pts. Chainfists are not my cup of tea (extra d6 vs vehicles, meh), but if you really like the extra help against mech, you really only need one. honestly, though, chainfists are so deadly to heavily armored vehicles that any player worth his army bag will just drive his battlewagon the hell away from your scary little serrated middle-fingers of doom.
a much better option by far would be to run assault terminators and attach pedro to the squad. his "Inspiring Presence" rule gives models within 12" an extra attack. this would balance out your army's heavy emphasis on long/midrange shooty, forcing your opponent to react to your deathstar assault unit instead of just prioritizing your tanks.

your Sternguard squad looks pretty good, but I would drop the combi-flamers. You don't want to have a reason to get into flamer range with sternguard. With all their special ammunition, they are your midrange gunline stars. Use them for killing elites and light armor as much as possible and steer clear of 30-man ork squads and other cheap horde units (which would be the reason for the 2 flamer shots). pod them with pedro near an objective, and then use the locator beacon you've cleverly placed in their pod to warp in your terminators. Pedro then links up with with the termies to look for combat while your sternguard look to claim an objective or shoot stuff depending on the mission.

you've also added (in subsequent comments) that you are putting TWO extra locator beacons into your tac squads. this doesn't really make sense. your drop pod will come in on turn one due to the drop pod rule. it also land fairly reliably due to "Inertial Guidance." pods only Misshap if they scatter off the table, so they really don't need a locator beacon themselves. Are you worried that you might lose one or 2 beacons before you can get your termies onto the field? I just don't see that happening. if you want the terminators to be able to use a locator beacon/teleport homer on turn 1, just put one in a tac squad that you deploy on the board from the get-go. still, i like it better in the drop pod for reasons alluded to above.

Your dreadnought's weapon loadout is technically illegal. the two weapons you've selected are both replacements for the stock MM armament. the other arm (which starts with the stock CC weapon) can only be changed to a TL autocannon or ML. that said, I don't think the combination would be that great anyway. what role do you want your dread to play? is he a CC monster--make him an ironclad and pod him next to a valuable enemy unit on the flank, or just run him up the table if the pod is too pricey. is he long-range fire support--rifleman that sucker with 2x TL AC, or go with the classic TL lascannon and ML to kill tanks and still have some templates to throw at big squads.

Finally, your vindicators are great. nothing I would change about those. I am tempted to suggest lascannon sponsons on your predator using the points you've saved from dropping a terminator, or dropping those chainfists and 2 locator beacons. the predator is most effective sitting in you backfield killing armor at range. heavy bolters dilute this role, but they are significantly cheaper, so there's room to disagree with me here.

Overall, this list has an "everything but the kitchen sink" feel to it. you added 2 terminators for no other reason than that you "had an extra 80 points to play with." an extra 15 points is something to play with. 80 points is another predator and then some. If you are forced into making bad army selection due to the high points value (and aren't playing a hilarious game of apoc), you should ask your opponents if you can play at 1500 while you are still building a decent force.
I'll close by saying that I like to see SM forces with a variety of wargear outside of the few mainstay choices, so you don't have to do everything I've suggested, but think about some of it. try to plan for how certain combinations of things will synergize within a unit to make it fulfill a particular role, and in turn how that role fits into your overall force. that's the key to building a great army. best of luck!
I agree with the blunt of this. I will look into dropping a tactical squad, however since my heavy support is filled I can't grab another predator. I will drop the HBs, I know the missiles are probably the better option. I was going to keep the squads at full strength unless I saw it as a tactical advantage. I mainly wanted the razorbacks as cheap tanks and fire support. I will definitely drop that eighty points of terminators and find a better use. Maybe a landspeeder. I really have a lot of models, practically everything but landraiders and nothing with jump-packs. So I am really just trying to find something that is a great a mid to long range. I appreciate the input on the combi-flamers, I suppose I was just thinking that the sternguard are not bad in close combat, especially with pedro, so a combi-flamer might be pretty cool. Final note on the locator beacons, I definitely agree, three is a lot for one terminator squad but I hate having to deep strike without some sort of protection.
11-05-11 08:19 AM
Greenskin Ok, well here's my opinion after giving it a little thought:
A lot of your chosen wargear options are very unusual. this is not necessarily a good thing. there's a reason you don't see two heavy bolters in a SM army. get missiles on those tac squads and if you want some variety sprinkle in melta weapons and P-fists among their ranks depending on how much mech you expect to run into.
you've already pointed out the weakness of your razorbacks--your tac squads can't use them. are you going to combat squad all of them? at 2000 pts, 5-man combat squads will go down like groupies at a led zeppelin concert. I can see the razorspam working out, but remember that 2 dudes can shoot out of rhinos while riding in style to their objective upfield. put HK missles on those puppies and you've got unlimited range missles to make up for the lost firepower of the razors. that said, the razors are not awful, and can stay if you like them a lot. I respect the homage to 2nd edition with the laz-plas-back, but the rules suck for it. for the (high) cost of a TL lascannon, you get a TL plasmagun or a single LC shot, unless you stay still to fire both--waste of a transport.

3 10-man tactical squads is a lot of basic marines running around. A good rule of thumb with SM armies is that you want 1 tac squad per 600 points of army. you have 2000 points, so there is no problem there, but you are also taking 10 sternguard who are scoring units because of Pedro. think about dropping a tactical and getting another predator, or trimming even more fat and investing an a landraider crusader for your termies to ride in with Pedro. And let's talk about those termies...

Your terminator squad of 7 is not optimized to fulfill any particular battlefield role. if you want to run shooty termies, you should really take a cyclone on one of them. they pump out 2x frag or krak missle per turn. you should always take one on shooty terminators. the assault cannon is also a good choice. I dont' have enough experience to speak on the utility of the heavy flamer in a termy squad, but it I can see the potential, and it's a cheap experiment at +5 pts. Chainfists are not my cup of tea (extra d6 vs vehicles, meh), but if you really like the extra help against mech, you really only need one. honestly, though, chainfists are so deadly to heavily armored vehicles that any player worth his army bag will just drive his battlewagon the hell away from your scary little serrated middle-fingers of doom.
a much better option by far would be to run assault terminators and attach pedro to the squad. his "Inspiring Presence" rule gives models within 12" an extra attack. this would balance out your army's heavy emphasis on long/midrange shooty, forcing your opponent to react to your deathstar assault unit instead of just prioritizing your tanks.

your Sternguard squad looks pretty good, but I would drop the combi-flamers. You don't want to have a reason to get into flamer range with sternguard. With all their special ammunition, they are your midrange gunline stars. Use them for killing elites and light armor as much as possible and steer clear of 30-man ork squads and other cheap horde units (which would be the reason for the 2 flamer shots). pod them with pedro near an objective, and then use the locator beacon you've cleverly placed in their pod to warp in your terminators. Pedro then links up with with the termies to look for combat while your sternguard look to claim an objective or shoot stuff depending on the mission.

you've also added (in subsequent comments) that you are putting TWO extra locator beacons into your tac squads. this doesn't really make sense. your drop pod will come in on turn one due to the drop pod rule. it also land fairly reliably due to "Inertial Guidance." pods only Misshap if they scatter off the table, so they really don't need a locator beacon themselves. Are you worried that you might lose one or 2 beacons before you can get your termies onto the field? I just don't see that happening. if you want the terminators to be able to use a locator beacon/teleport homer on turn 1, just put one in a tac squad that you deploy on the board from the get-go. still, i like it better in the drop pod for reasons alluded to above.

Your dreadnought's weapon loadout is technically illegal. the two weapons you've selected are both replacements for the stock MM armament. the other arm (which starts with the stock CC weapon) can only be changed to a TL autocannon or ML. that said, I don't think the combination would be that great anyway. what role do you want your dread to play? is he a CC monster--make him an ironclad and pod him next to a valuable enemy unit on the flank, or just run him up the table if the pod is too pricey. is he long-range fire support--rifleman that sucker with 2x TL AC, or go with the classic TL lascannon and ML to kill tanks and still have some templates to throw at big squads.

Finally, your vindicators are great. nothing I would change about those. I am tempted to suggest lascannon sponsons on your predator using the points you've saved from dropping a terminator, or dropping those chainfists and 2 locator beacons. the predator is most effective sitting in you backfield killing armor at range. heavy bolters dilute this role, but they are significantly cheaper, so there's room to disagree with me here.

Overall, this list has an "everything but the kitchen sink" feel to it. you added 2 terminators for no other reason than that you "had an extra 80 points to play with." an extra 15 points is something to play with. 80 points is another predator and then some. If you are forced into making bad army selection due to the high points value (and aren't playing a hilarious game of apoc), you should ask your opponents if you can play at 1500 while you are still building a decent force.
I'll close by saying that I like to see SM forces with a variety of wargear outside of the few mainstay choices, so you don't have to do everything I've suggested, but think about some of it. try to plan for how certain combinations of things will synergize within a unit to make it fulfill a particular role, and in turn how that role fits into your overall force. that's the key to building a great army. best of luck!
11-04-11 06:41 PM
lockeF
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenskin View Post
2 heavy bolter tac squads, eh? that's a new one. generally, a ML is the better choice due to its versatility and the fact that it comes free. It's a shame, too, because the heavy bolters look so much cooler IMO.
Well I went with HBs for two reasons: I am a fan of lots of shots and my DA army uses like 12 or so missiles and I wanted to change up a but. I have models with MLs in case the HB fail me but I will try it. I just like the idea od ripping into orks with a HB.
Side note, the first two tactical squads also have locator beacons.
11-04-11 12:58 PM
Jace of Ultramar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenskin View Post
2 heavy bolter tac squads, eh? that's a new one. generally, a ML is the better choice due to its versatility and the fact that it comes free. It's a shame, too, because the heavy bolters look so much cooler IMO.
Agreed. The ML is the choice people tell me to go with. The HB does look so much cooler and has that whole 'Time to let ol painless out of the bag' look to it.
11-04-11 07:14 AM
Greenskin 2 heavy bolter tac squads, eh? that's a new one. generally, a ML is the better choice due to its versatility and the fact that it comes free. It's a shame, too, because the heavy bolters look so much cooler IMO.
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