Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums - Reply to Topic
40k Fluff Discuss GW background material here. All those bits in the Codex that aren't stat blocks or special rules. Post your custom character/chapter/army background in our Homebrew Fluff subforum!

Thread: Dan Abnett on Missing Primarchs Reply to Thread
Title:
Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










  Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

  Topic Review (Newest First)
11-13-10 04:18 PM
Phoebus Because anything other than the Imperium's destruction is nothing more than a zero-sum game for Chaos.

I suspect it ultimately comes down to this fundamental question: do you feel that Chaos wanted something more than it had (in terms of what it was getting from Humanity) at the onset of the Great Crusade?

I do. Ephemeral and elemental, the Ruinous Powers are nonetheless sentient. They just don't strike me as the types to settle down and accept a "business as usual" status quo. The state of the Warp itself is defined by excess: heightened states of emotion reflecting bad things done on a grand scale.

The Emperor's arrival at a most basic level heralded the end of a period that was defined by Chaos' undoing of Human society. Wide-spread practices were introduced that minimized the avenues Chaos had for access to Humanity. There's no comparing, for instance, the preferred state of things--e.g., Cadia in the 31st millennium--with a planet where no religious, occult, or otherwise supernaturally-aimed activity is allowed. Taken to a galactic level, this would be intolerable to Chaos. No wonder, then, that they opposed the Emperor.

This state of affairs has not ended with the Emperor's incapacitation. Galaxy-wide, Chaos is largely denied their due. Sure, it's fueled by the violence that comes hand in hand with the Imperium, but that's nothing compared to (even indirect) worship and the actions that go with it.

Just my opinion, though. I'm not trying to pass it off as fact, since I think that's a nigh-impossibility where much of the 40k mythos are concerned!
11-13-10 02:38 PM
Child-of-the-Emperor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
But, ten thousand years later, the Imperium endures. The theme of the game might be the slow ending of the Imperium (and of Humanity, perhaps) but I would argue that this has far less to do with the actions of Chaos than the mistakes and hubris of Man.
It may endure, but its destined to fall. But that isn't the issue, there is no evidence to suggest that the chaos gods wished the downfall of the Imperium. The Emperor was their target, not the empire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
I don't know that Chaos won. There's a huge difference between Lorgar imposing worship of Chaos on Humanity and giving the Chaos gods incomparable influence and power as compared to what they have now.

Chaos at best got a consolation prize. They still get to take advantage of Human emotion (a status quo that wasn't going to go away just because religion is outlawed) and they enjoy the sacrifices of the odd cult and occasional mega-ritual (Traitor Legionnaires massacring a world here and there). But they got trumped in the worst way. The Emperor still--indirectly--exerts incomparable influence over Mankind, he still exerts influence over their domain (the Warp), and he steals "votes" from them all the time by drawing the worship of Men.

What Chaos needed was the Emperor dead and the Imperium actually destroyed. Not the Emperor installed in a god-head and the Imperium still ruling the stars.
Whats your basis for suggesting the chaos gods needed the Imperium destroyed?

Let's look at it from their perspective. The chaos gods put aside the great game and unite rarely to take advantage of a particular occurence, thwart a threat or to universally gain more influence. The rise of the Emperor was such a time, and the result was the initiation of the Horus Heresy, and the 'ascension' of the Emperor. After the Heresy they returned to the great game, pretty much proving that they had achieved their objective.

The Emperor's plans have been shattered, his visions have failed. He rules over a stagnant and decadent empire whose wars do little but to delay the inevitable and yet still empower chaos. The Imperium will fall, it's only a matter of time. And what is time to a being that is timeless and eternal?
11-13-10 09:59 AM
Phoebus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malus Darkblade View Post
Exactly.

That quote about how the main fleet of the Tyranids arriving in a hundred years time and requiring the imperium to become 500% more efficient to even stand a chance comes to mind.

What better figure to inspire the masses into a frenzy and powerhouse than the emperor himself?
"Hi. My name is Lion El'Jonson. I was hidden in the middle of a void-sailing asteroid-fortress until my friend Leman Russ found me. It literally took him 10,000 years to dig through the entire thing to the core. These are our friends, Corax, Jaghatai Khan, and Vulkan. We found one of them in the Eye of the Terror, writing bad poetry; the other has been worked on by xenos for a long time, so go easy on him Vulkan's just been hiding.

We're here to increase your efficiency 500%."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
* The Imperium lost the Horus Heresy (The Emperor incapacitated, most of their empire shattered)
But, ten thousand years later, the Imperium endures. The theme of the game might be the slow ending of the Imperium (and of Humanity, perhaps) but I would argue that this has far less to do with the actions of Chaos than the mistakes and hubris of Man.

Quote:
* The Chaos Gods won the Horus Heresy (The threat posed by the Emperor vanquished, the Imperium fallen into decadence, and actually benefited from the fighting/wars)
I don't know that Chaos won. There's a huge difference between Lorgar imposing worship of Chaos on Humanity and giving the Chaos gods incomparable influence and power as compared to what they have now.

Chaos at best got a consolation prize. They still get to take advantage of Human emotion (a status quo that wasn't going to go away just because religion is outlawed) and they enjoy the sacrifices of the odd cult and occasional mega-ritual (Traitor Legionnaires massacring a world here and there). But they got trumped in the worst way. The Emperor still--indirectly--exerts incomparable influence over Mankind, he still exerts influence over their domain (the Warp), and he steals "votes" from them all the time by drawing the worship of Men.

What Chaos needed was the Emperor dead and the Imperium actually destroyed. Not the Emperor installed in a god-head and the Imperium still ruling the stars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baltar View Post
Chaos won the heresy.

The entire point in it being set in motion was that it consequentially lead to eternal war across the galaxy.

The whole concept is explained in "Legion".
I could be remembering this wrong, but I'm pretty sure that:

1. For Chaos the be defeated in the immediate time frame Horus needed to win and the Emperor needed to die. Thus, Horus would burn Humanity in self-loathing and rid Chaos of their "fuel".

2. If Horus didn't win, that meant that the Galaxy would have to endure 10-20,000 years of misery as Humanity died the slow way and the rest of the sentients suffered because of it. Either way, though, the question was WHEN Humanity was going to die and HOW MUCH the rest of the Galaxy had to suffer. Not "if".

Thus, to incorporate this with my points toward Child of the Emperor, above, no one "won" the Heresy. All players involved lost to some degree.

1. Mankind lost its greatest (and most terrible) hope of being freed from the shackles of Chaos to the extent possible.

2. The Traitor Legions lost the final battle and were exiled to the Eye of Terror. Certainly none of them run around going "Man, we sure won the shit out of the Heresy!"

3. Chaos lost its greatest chance to wrap up Humanity forever.

4. The Galaxy at large lost because it got stuck with "the cruelest, most bloody regime" imaginable for ten thousand long years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Spikey View Post
Except instead of an Imperium founded on scientific endeavor, unity, and a secular society you have the current Imperium based on lies, religious intolerance and tyrannical stagnation.
I used to think the same way, but not since the Horus Heresy novels.

The Emperor was no great innovator where the mundane facets of Man's society are concerned. We see in the HH novels (and in other fluff) that bolters, power armour, starships, Navigators, etc. all predated the Emperor. In some cases, the Emperor acted as a multiplier of sorts--his enabling longer, safer voyages through space, for instance. But the idea of a secular society was a lie as well, and a hypocritical one at that, given that the Imperium existed only thanks to a compromise that allowed the Mechanicus--then as arcane and occult in their technological endeavors as now--to keep on with their own religion. In fact, scientific endeavor in the Imperium as a whole was centrally located within the Mechanicus, who, again, had reduced technological gathering, implementation, and innovation to religious ritual.

And ultimately, the only difference between the tyranny of the current Imperium and the Great Crusade Imperium was style and a sense of optimism. People were still brutally made into mindless servitors. Military formations were still doomed to fight until they could no longer do so. Worlds still had no choice in giving up their young to go fight in the Emperor's wars. The Imperium then, as now, was all too quick to pull the trigger on entire populations to get rid of dangerous ideas or dissidents on a large enough scale. The current Imperium, by contrast, has simply reached its apex. If there were more room to expand (or the capability to do so), they would do so.

I mean, look at Macharius--that was just six centuries ago in the game's timeline. And now it's suddenly the end-times? After one guy proved that Mankind still occasionally has the genius, gumption and raw ferocity to pull down a thousand worlds in less than four decades?!?

That's why, with respect to the design team and writers both at GW and BL, I take it with a grain of salt when concepts and themes like "the End Times" are revealed. It is a business ultimately, even if it is based on creative endeavors, and thus it needs to flow, change a bit, and offer something to make it more enticing to purchase a product. I don't begrudge them that, just as I don't begrudge them for keeping "aces in the hole" for an opposite direction 4-5 missing Primarchs who could return to set things right, for instance, and just as I wouldn't begrudge them for actually USING such an ace.

The most business-savvy line in "Legion", since that novel came up, was Mr. Abnett--through the characters--giving us a 10,000 to 20,000 year range for Humanity's destruction.

Cheers,
P.
11-13-10 06:53 AM
Serpion5 The First Heretic quotes them as the Forgotten and the Purged.

So it would seem one was eliminated, and the other disbanded. The disbanded Legion is also hinted to have been assimilated into the Ultramarines Legion.

Speculate your hearts out, Heretics.



EDIT: Hey Ploss, have you been promoted?
11-12-10 07:17 PM
Commissar Ploss
Quote:
Originally Posted by Words_of_Truth View Post
No the sound on the video is low and distorted, can't hear him clearly at all. Music is fine but I can barely hear what he's saying.
oh, the BLTV video. gotcha.
11-12-10 07:07 PM
Words_of_Truth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commissar Ploss View Post
sound? oh god, you're hearing things again...

CP

(i'd imagine there are ads that play for you non-supporter types... that may be where the sound is coming from.)
No the sound on the video is low and distorted, can't hear him clearly at all. Music is fine but I can barely hear what he's saying.
11-12-10 07:05 PM
Commissar Ploss
Quote:
Originally Posted by Words_of_Truth View Post
What's up with the sound?
sound? oh god, you're hearing things again...

CP

(i'd imagine there are ads that play for you non-supporter types... that may be where the sound is coming from.)
11-12-10 07:01 PM
Words_of_Truth What's up with the sound?
11-12-10 05:29 PM
Child-of-the-Emperor I believe its been said in other threads at some point but in regards to whether they will ever be revealed (in regards to the Heresy series):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gav Thorpe
Chances of them turning up? Zero.

Chances of little hints? Smidgeon.

Chances those hints will be deliberately contradictory and not very helpful? High (I hope).

There's never going to be a reveal on the Missing Primarchs, nor should there be. They are one of the Great Mysteries of 40K ™ and should remain that way forever. Whatever story might be concocted for them is nowhere near as cool as everybody's own pet theory, and that's how it should remain.

GAV
07-31-10 11:14 AM
mal310 I posted the bulk of this on another thread but this seems the best place for it.

Iím in two minds regarding revealing the histories of the two lost legions. On one hand the current take works on some level I suppose, however Iím generally of the opinion that mysteries are there to be solved. New ones can always be created.

A number of comments have been made in this post about the fact that if they did it, it would cause major problems with the current lore, changing 40k history, bring total upheaval to what already been written, etc, etc. There have also been comments on the quality of background reveled i.e., the story would be lame, rubbish, not up to expectations, etc.

I donít see why either of these opinions have to hold true. Iím sure itís not beyond the wit of a great author to conjure a story that is not only a fantastic read but something that also does not cause great upheaval with what has already been written. Even if their stories did affect current lore they could be used to greatly enhance the 40k setting as opposed to taking away from it. They could (for example) be used as a springboard for a new race, fifth chaos god, another type of god entirely, an unexplored area of space with unexpected and new things going one. There are many interesting possibilities, none of which necessarily have to effect the current setting in a negative way. I have no doubt that it would not be everybodyís cut of tea. But NOTHING ever is.

There is also the possibility that there being two legions, each with separate tragedies, that they could do a story on one and reveal their history while leaving the other completely alone to continue a mystery. I donít see why they have to be intertwined.

I would hope that Abnett would get one and ADB the other. Both great authors who I'm sure would do the legions and their primarchs justice. I'm sure that both must have spent time thinking of possible stories and I for one would trust their judgment on whether those stories were good enough. On the other hand maby they haven't given it a second thought. Dought it tho.
This thread has more than 10 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome