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  Topic Review (Newest First)
06-11-16 01:51 PM
forkmaster I had a lot of problems with this novel, mostly as a EC-fan who felt they were sidelined to the overall story other than to make the Iron Warriors look like the straight arrow guy reacting to crazy shit, all IW are re-used characters from previous 40k stories (except one) which in some cases were fun to see their origins, it also limited the narrative and universe and removed all stakes as we already know what will happen to them. Perturabo was well-written, but it didn't fit the time period. It would be great for his Primarch-novella in the new spinn-off series they'v started, but during the Heresy he should be fitter as [email protected]*k. The loyalist served no purpose which took away screen-time where we could have seen interaction between Perturabo and Fulgrim and build their relation, Fulgrim was so obviously gonna backstab Perturabo it hurt to read. I would have preferred if he was able to mask his intentions for Perturabo but we as the audience could see it coming. Also how McNeill screwed with the background lore of Lucius first death.

I give this novel roughly 4/10 I believe.
04-28-13 11:45 PM
Lord of the Night
Originally Posted by ckcrawford View Post
There are a lot of 10/10's out there for this book. Also a lot of indifference. Which is fucked up if you ask me. 10/10.
Well my score for this book was 9.5/10, which while higher than yours is not a 10/10 but admittedly close to it. But I felt that AE fell short of that 10/10 rank due to some unexplained, or not explained enough, events like the DE ship and one or two things that I found confusing.

But I enjoyed seeing so many familiar faces return, it's a nice reminder that these characters were around then and seeing how they became the characters that we know really made this book better imo rather than just introducing a new cast from scratch just for the purpose of this one novel. I get why some wouldn't like what McNeill did and i'm not saying you should, i'm just saying that I did and thus I enjoyed the book more and gave it a higher score.

As for your mention of the Iron Warriors being backstabbers, I think that comes from the position of the Triarchs and the idea that a leader can be demoted for failure, even if it's not a bad one, and that would naturally encourage others to try and gain an advantage over others and of course that naturally leads to backstabbing, especially if bitterness becomes a problem in the Legion as we know it did with the IVth, and if your commanding officer doesn't put a stop to it as Perturabo clearly didn't.

04-28-13 11:30 PM
ckcrawford I don't deny Perturabo's depiction. However it doesn't even matter... as much as I hate saying that... unless they are going to describe his part during the siege... his depiction means little to the overall Heresy. Very little contribution was given to the Heresy with this novel except for an explanation of Honsou's existance... A new take on Fulgrim... meaningless... chaos between the legions... no shit... Battle of the Abyss loyalists... again...

The problem with rating it a 6 or 4 out of 10 is how this impacts other reviews. There are a lot of 10/10's out there for this book. Also a lot of indifference. Which is fucked up if you ask me. 10/10. So I'm the outlier? You see what I mean? 8/10 is a step close to the mainstream reviews that keep on kissing author's butts. 8/10 is like.... "how could you be so picky..." I don't really understand what has become of the Heresy... but many fans have defended the recent works which many who have critisized have remained silent. Unnecessarly defended if you ask me... to give books 10/10. The Heresy isn't even taken seriously anymore.
04-27-13 11:09 PM
Khorne's Fist I have to say I really enjoyed this book. Perturabo was excellenty written, one of the best rendered primarchs so far I think. His struggle with his guilt over his genocide versus his sense of rejection by the Emperor was cool, along with his desire to break his legion out of their pigeon hole and bitterness that he was never given the chance to. It's no First Heretic or A Thousand Sons, but it's up there IMO.
04-26-13 02:16 PM
bobss Looking at it logically, an 8/10 is 80%. That's pretty damn high. Even despite good qualities, if I had some serious issues with a novel, then that's pushing it, and I know this forum has the tendency to attribute 7+/10 to practically anything regardless of its actual merits. To me, an 8/10 is the type of book I loved at the time and could recall fondly at a later date, but still with negative qualities I could mull over. 7/10 is similar, but with more mulling and a more hazy recollection of its quality. 9/10 is reserved for something you've got to sit down and deliberate its faults and 10/10 (and some people don't even use this score) is for that once-in-a-few-years book you experience.

Given your impression, a 6/10 seems more appropriate, but honestly, if you were left with a slightly more negative impression, I don't see any harm with a 4/10. To me, a 5/10 isn't a shit score by any stretch, it just means the good managed to balance out the bad -- not overcome it.
04-26-13 09:21 AM
ckcrawford I actually thought I was more than nice with my review looking back at it. We have to stop feeling like children when someone takes a few points away from it. This book is a 7-8 at most, and doesn't compare AT ALL as one of the best Heresy Novels and works to give it a 9 or 10.

From third perspective this book really doesn't contribute to the main scheme of things in the Heresy. It is very much like Battle of the Abyss.
04-21-13 11:12 PM
bobss Nice review, mate. I appreciate your straightforward, spoiler-free approach and the lack of pretentious formatting -- just honest words from the heart.

I haven't read the novel yet, but as a big Emperor's Children fan with very fond memories of Fulgrim I can't say I'll have the same reaction. But, I will take your criticisms into consideration during the read.
11-27-12 10:36 AM
ckcrawford Dude... not even mad at you. Bad month I guess. Your cool Lupe. Any Iron Warrior fan is cool in my eyes.

But in a serious note, this book has really been overrated. All the characters except Perturabo were a dissapointment. Lots of Battle of the Abyss going on. A made up story created by Fulgrim that everyone including the reader follows. CRAP
11-27-12 12:27 AM
Lupe Your rating of the novel is your own prerogative, and I certainly don't find 8/10 to be a bad score by any means. Plus, I'd respect anyone less if they changed it the first post I disagree with them...

I happen to dislike books that are generally liked by parts of the 40K community, (Fulgrim, for instance - not that it's relevant). and I also happened to enjoy Battle for the Abyss, even though I couldn't ever bring myself to rate it as anything better than mediocre.

The only part of your review I didn't fully understand was that specific line I quoted in my post. The Iron Warriors weren't well done at all. They came out worse than Storm of Iron, and especially worse than Iron Within. And yes, they are, in fact, the accessories to Perturabo's tuxedo.

I suppose some part of the problem is that I'm not into the tabletop hobby at all. I'm into 40K for the background, for better or worse. I just can't make that leap of arguing for or against a book because of the effect it has on me to associate its characters with the way they will determine my preferences for another pastime. Another part of the problem is that I'm a sucker for character moments, and I don't tend to let battle scenes influence my ratings, unless they really screw the book up, or there's not much else the book can show for itself...

But still, after reading the book, I never for a second, got the impression that the Iron Warriors were supposed to shine here in the first place. Honestly, everything lead me to believe that they were in fact out of their element. That's not an excuse for mediocrity, I know. But not a great stage to take to the spotlight, either. Just neutral ground, really. For me, this makes the pill at least somewhat easier to swallow.

Anyway, I'm aware of Graham's shortcomings, and I'm not going to great lengths to defend him here. I agree with most of the points you made (even if the bearing they have on my subjective perception of the book might differ) I'm not all too thrilled with splinter groups of loyalists going behind enemy lines, much less so the logic guiding the actions of the band in this particular book. I agree that Toramino and Harkor are backstabbers for the sake of it. I agree that two marines should not be able to escape two legions' worth of armed guards.

I just didn't understand why you were picking on THAT particular detail. Even compared to some of the other stuff in Angel Exterminatus got wrong, saying they felt generic when Perturabo seemed like he actually wanted and went actively chose to put them in a situation to break the routine and fight like all the other legions seems like nitpicking to me.

So, my argument was simply meant to say: "Look, aren't you overreacting on that one account? Here's why it didn't seem that bad to me..."

But you Lupe are an Iron Warrior fan. Quite interesting. As far as things go, Iron Warrior was pretty much the only other Iron Warrior novel to show the legions success. Unfortunately, Graham McNeill destroyed Honsou's success and the Iron Warrior Legion as a whole. This novel just adds to the fact that Graham McNeil uses this legion as canon fodder for his other works. Honsou made the Ultramarines awesome, in this novel, Fulgrim is the player and Perturabo the pawn.
Totally missed this part. Yes, I'm a fan.

See, I've never had the chance to read Iron Warrior (what, with it being limited edition for so long, and I never bought the omnibus for some reason). But knowing Graham's track record, I expected this book to turn out a lot worse than it actually did. I was especially afraid that Perturabo would fall short of my expectations by a great margin. He didn't. He exceeded them, and he quite frankly got me sold on a few new facets that I hadn't envisioned in him. I'm willing to cut the book more than a bit of slack for that, and I'll be the first to admit that I'm taking sides somewhat. I'm sorry you didn't like it, I'm sorry we don't see eye to eye but that's that. Were your expectations higher, or was I prepared for a much worse book than you? The answer would be purely academical, of course. I can't make the book better in your eyes any more than you can ruin it for me. I was just debating about the vibe the depiction of Fourth legion is supposed to instill...
11-26-12 11:42 PM
ckcrawford I don't understand your argument Lupe. You say that the Iron Warriors were in fact depicted well because the novel did not show their strength as an overwhelming siege tactic army... and yet, they were deployed in this book because of that reason. Fulgrim used the Iron Warriors to besiege the Eldar Fortress and to fortify their position while he sacrificed their primarch to the Dark Gods. Even as I write these words this story sounds stupid.

We couldn't even avoid the stereotypes if we wanted to. The whole novel they were building or sieging something. We all chose armies based on what we think about the novels, so a novel about the Iron Warriors because it was Perturabo's story should have bolstered their view in Warhammer fans. This story cannot do that for them. Contrary to every other legion that has been depicted thus far, having the author championing them. Even Fulgrim and his Emperor's Children were shown to have some awesome characters and badass ones, like Lucius. All we got in this novel were a bunch of characters from Storm of Iron and its spins that weren't very Iron Warriorish. It was really boring from an Iron Warrior Fan perspective. It was like seeing a prequel to something with the original characters just for the sake of having it.

To add to that, besides for the Storm of Iron gang, essentially every other Iron Warrior was depicted as a stereotypical back stabber even though the Iron Warriors had just turned traitor. I don't even think its fair to say that they had been tainted yet. Further supportive of my theory is that the Perturabo is seen to have a different concept and goal to the Heresy than Fulgrim or the other traitors. Plus, Erebus did not have a footing in the ranks.

So you had that, plus a bunch of random characters from other legions running around trying to screw up the two legions. Sound like another stupid story that we heard before? Sure as hell sounds like a Battle of the Abyss novel to me. So while some characters in this story were written well, others were just written in cliche format. I wonder if Battle for the Abyss had been written around this time, would it have been better praised? Especially now that people are okay with this idea of splinter cell astartes sneaking around and sabatoging legions. Following legions for miles in space, landing on planets occupied with two legion unnoticed. Managing to penetrate the defences of two legions and putting a bullet in the head of a primarch. Bad guys go ROAR and fight so blindly that they praticaly suck and have a hard time killing a few loyalists. I have seriously lost faith with who the heck is reading this stuff. Seriously, what the heck is going on? I suppose the new hard books were suppose to highlight a "new beginning" to the Heresy. A new beginning to bullshit.

Do you think I should have rated this novel any higher? An 8/10? I practically grin at this grade, and was about to put it lower. But its so hard to rate something when you have other people rating it a fricken 10/10! Are you serious? This book was just that fucking good huh? I can see it now, a bunch of french guys putting down their cigars and their mouths open in awe. MAGNEFIC! Tears rolling down their cheeks as their lives are complete. If I put it down at a 6 or 7, where I really think it should be, can you imagine the skew? It pratically means I fucking hate Graham McNeill and all his works, when in fact two of his Heresy Novel are in my top 5.

The novel is a piece of shit. My rate of the novel is only an alternative view and democratic way of putting it up without scaring the shit out of people. Is it so bad you shouldn't read it? Well fuck... as a heresy fan, its kind of hard to just say, "fuck it, I'm going to stop reading this shit," when in fact I've invested to much time and interest into it. I can only hope it gets better.

Whats worse is if I graded this novel as a third person. Can you imagine. I could just say, well who gives a fuck about Perturabo? I don't care. That, and what this novel brought as far as really interesting fluff or crap (depends on your view I guess). Then wow, this novel pretty much gives no contribution to the Heresy. I graded it the way I did, because I am a Iron Warrior fan, and Perturabo's story does interest me. But guess what? In the scheme of things, he's not that big of a player to most people. And I guess thats why people like the fact that his image as well as the Iron Warriors were tainted in the making of this book. It didn't matter to most people, and they got a Raven Guard shooting Fulgrim in the head. A few Iron Hands that could hold off two whole legions. A Salamander who is just the huggable type. Good shit all around for people who benefit with the Iron Warrior's legacy just being raped.

But you Lupe are an Iron Warrior fan. Quite interesting. As far as things go, Iron Warrior was pretty much the only other Iron Warrior novel to show the legions success. Unfortunately, Graham McNeill destroyed Honsou's success and the Iron Warrior Legion as a whole. This novel just adds to the fact that Graham McNeil uses this legion as canon fodder for his other works. Honsou made the Ultramarines awesome, in this novel, Fulgrim is the player and Perturabo the pawn.
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