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Thread: Why was Big E a xenophobe? Reply to Thread
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  Topic Review (Newest First)
07-30-13 09:13 PM
Over Two Meters Tall!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaviz81 View Post
If the numbers were that low he would have done without. For me he needed them to be the tip of the spear due to how nasty things are and no superior firepower won't always work. It's my interpretation, but they were really needed.
I very much agree with you on this, and in relation to the OP, the Emperor was looking at the long picture for humanity in the galaxy. I believe he saw that regardless of incidental treaties and alliances, the most powerful species wins, therefore humanity either destroyed the other sentient species or they would eventually become their prey.

In one of the prior posts, someone said that the Eldar were largely ignoring Humanity by the start of the GC, since they were too wrapped up in their own thing, making the Emperor's emnity toward them less than understandable. The HH novels are full of references to Expedition Fleets saving newly discovered human worlds from Dark Eldar raiders who feed upon them for their sick amusement. I don't remember hearing anything about regular Eldar, but imagine they weren't any more considerate of humanity if it suited their purposes.
07-30-13 06:00 PM
Beaviz81
Quote:
Originally Posted by locustgate View Post
They are super soldiers. If he didn't have them then he would have to double, quadruple or more the Army recruitment numbers to make up for the lost of man power.
If the numbers were that low he would have done without. For me he needed them to be the tip of the spear due to how nasty things are and no superior firepower won't always work. It's my interpretation, but they were really needed.
07-30-13 05:20 PM
bitsandkits i was told that hes a xenophobe because he was once the meat in an ork sandwich .



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07-30-13 05:00 PM
locustgate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaviz81 View Post
Was it that smart to create the Astartes? For me they seem like smug supes at best, dangerously unstable beings with superpowers at worst.
They are super soldiers. If he didn't have them then he would have to double, quadruple or more the Army recruitment numbers to make up for the lost of man power.
07-30-13 04:05 PM
Beaviz81 Was it that smart to create the Astartes? For me they seem like smug supes at best, dangerously unstable beings with superpowers at worst.
07-30-13 10:42 AM
Apostle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
Not really, they predicted the logical outcomes of an event based on the principles of farseeing. They didn't possess knowledge that no other single entity possessed. Remember, there were numerous warnings from numerous individuals prior to the Heresy about Horus and his rebellion.

Right, however you could easily argue that the Alpha Legion was persuaded to make a (very arguable) but still plausible future point that they knew far more than the Emperor. Why didn't the Emperor forsee what these ancient Psykers saw? Because he was busy building on a Webway. Possibly sure, but an all powerful Psyker like the Emperor later is said to watch over and know all things that pose a threat the Imperium now that he is on the Golden Throne. Did his foresight get stronger after Horus beat him around a little bit? He sure did not see enough futures to prevent Chaos from constantly torturing the Imperium.



"Maybe. But what does that prove?"

I fully concede on the Xenophobia part and his need for Imperial expansion. Especially now that I am willing to admit I'm wrong today.





The Emperor didn't deny that the Heresy was going on, nor did he refrain from allowing Dorn (as acting Warmaster) to fight back. The Emperor wasn't involved in the Heresy whatsoever until the twilight of the Siege of Terra, he was too busy fighting the Secret War. Of course he recognised the Chaos taint, if you read Collected Visions the rhetoric is very much the Emperor versus Chaos rather than the Emperor versus Horus.

I have read all of the Collected Visions several times. However the overall 40k story contradicts itself in many ways. (Though it is probably my favorite story based game.) I always found it funny that after the crusade against the Orks and the appointing of the Warmaster was considered the great success of that struggle to the Emperor. How come the forces of Chaos became the major threat after that, and suddenly he needed to go back to Terra. You can not possible tell me that the Emperor believed he only needed to stay in the Great Crusade only until the Orks were temporarily put down. (Then amazingly his secret war was most important....Orks or the full brunt of Chaos...I would say the Emperor should have discovered his sons and IMMEDIATLY left for the Golden Throne. Especially if the forces of Chaos had decided not to try taking over the empire and thought they would wait for the Orks to try.



Perhaps he wasn't beyond saving.

He begged for forgiveness at the very end. the smartest thing the Emperor did since creating the Astartes was to kill his insolent son for beating him and laughing his ass off while he did it.



I didn't realise we were talking about the "most powerful", I was under the impression we were talking about the "most powerful psyker". Regardless, the Emperor was resigned to confronting Horus personally aboard the Vengeful Spirit years before he actually did (see Nemesis). Given, he hesitated momentarily during the final duel (not only for emotional reasons, but also out of disbelief of how powerful Horus had become and that he was losing) but I don't think you can criticise him for that.

My mistake on the above, I did not make it even close to clear. I used the word Psyker making most of my arguments invalid.

You're implying that the Emperor made bad decisions. Care to elaborate?
Yes, getting his ass kicked by Horus. Being unable to accept anything but the fact Magnus didn't do what daddy said.I think Magnus would have won the war against Horus, he was so powerful if the Emperor had simply asked him to come and assist Terra then presumably the World Eaters Primarch Angron would have perished quickly. Even a normal Astartes Psyker caused him even more than usual pain from the butchers nails. Think what Magnus could do....Angrons head would explode at least if he hadn't reached daemon prince status. Try not to look at everything based on what is written in stone. Because of the large amount of writers in this series, it is easy and appropriate to form opinions. BL has overridden it's own facts more than once. As a senior historian in my mind, I would think you of all people would know this.
07-30-13 09:45 AM
Child-of-the-Emperor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostle View Post
How about the Cabal that seems to have knowledge that no single entity does?
Not really, they predicted the logical outcomes of an event based on the principles of farseeing. They didn't possess knowledge that no other single entity possessed. Remember, there were numerous warnings from numerous individuals prior to the Heresy about Horus and his rebellion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostle View Post
So it means that if the Emperor didn't have his massive army to expand the Empire that humanity would be crushed with or without his psychic powers.
Maybe. But what does that prove?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostle View Post
I have a follow up question here also. If he has such powers why would he not recognize the Chaos taint about one year into the heresy. Horus was destroying giant amounts of planets and/or taking them over.
The Emperor didn't deny that the Heresy was going on, nor did he refrain from allowing Dorn (as acting Warmaster) to fight back. The Emperor wasn't involved in the Heresy whatsoever until the twilight of the Siege of Terra, he was too busy fighting the Secret War. Of course he recognised the Chaos taint, if you read Collected Visions the rhetoric is very much the Emperor versus Chaos rather than the Emperor versus Horus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostle View Post
Yet the "greatest mind" as said by some, couldn't figure out Horus and his allies were beyond saving until Horus killed someone in front of his face.
Perhaps he wasn't beyond saving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostle View Post
It might not provide facts, but if you use deduction, the Emperor was at least emotionally weak minded compared to others. Psychic power? Fine. Most powerful, then I disagree, good decision making is what makes a good leader, and being a deity/immensely powerful psyker does not make you the most powerful or the most intelligent.
I didn't realise we were talking about the "most powerful", I was under the impression we were talking about the "most powerful psyker". Regardless, the Emperor was resigned to confronting Horus personally aboard the Vengeful Spirit years before he actually did (see Nemesis). Given, he hesitated momentarily during the final duel (not only for emotional reasons, but also out of disbelief of how powerful Horus had become and that he was losing) but I don't think you can criticise him for that.

You're implying that the Emperor made bad decisions. Care to elaborate?
07-30-13 08:50 AM
Apostle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
Not quite. The webway was created by the Old Ones and then inherited by the Eldar.

The problem the Emperor had was that he couldn't replicate the material used in the webway's creation to build an artificial bridge in order to 'hack in' to the established network from the Imperial Palace. Thus he had to use his own psychic powers (via the Golden Throne) to maintain an artificial bridge by which Imperial troops could then access the wider webway network. This cannot be used as evidence to suggest Eldar psykers rivalled the Emperor's power. In fact, although it is impossible to prove either way, it does seem that the Emperor was the most powerful psyker the galaxy had ever seen.

How about the Cabal that seems to have knowledge that no single entity does?



The Chaos Gods actively worked to hinder the Emperor's foresight in the build-up to the Heresy. Again, this can hardly be used as evidence to suggest he wasn't the most powerful psyker.
So it means that if the Emperor didn't have his massive army to expand the Empire that humanity would be crushed with or without his psychic powers.
I have a follow up question here also. If he has such powers why would he not recognize the Chaos taint about one year into the heresy. Horus was destroying giant amounts of planets and/or taking them over. Yet the "greatest mind" as said by some, couldn't figure out Horus and his allies were beyond saving until Horus killed someone in front of his face. (you can answer with the forces of Chaos had their plot to play that tricked him.....but we all just know that's not logical, the Emperor screwed Chaos over many times, until finally meeting his end by his inferior son because he let him beat him within an inch of his life. With his incredible psychic might he was able to foresee what my 12 year old cousin could. The person responsible for killing billions or more of the loyalists...was OMG possibly evil. Such a brilliant mind yet so seemingly stupid if you look at the real world implications of being blind to your childs evil for almost an entire seven year war.



The Chaos Gods actively worked to hinder the Emperor's foresight in the build-up to the Heresy. Again, this can hardly be used as evidence to suggest he wasn't the most powerful psyker.[/QUOTE]

It might not provide facts, but if you use deduction, the Emperor was at least emotionally weak minded compared to others. Psychic power? Fine. Most powerful, then I disagree, good decision making is what makes a good leader, and being a deity/immensely powerful psyker does not make you the most powerful or the most intelligent.
07-29-13 04:45 PM
locustgate
Quote:
There are several "Psykers" of different species (namely the Eldar) that might have even posed a threat to the Emperor. For instance he was working very hard on developing parts of the Eldar webway for Humanity. (Presumably the Eldar figured that stuff out before the Emperor's balls dropped.)

Also it is specifically stated that if Humanity had not expanded that the Earth would be prone to Xenos and/or Chaos influence.

I do not think the Emperor was the most powerful Psyker, he was certainly not as gifted in foresight as he thought he was. Blinded by love for a son...REALLY? Considering the way some of the Emperor's son's were treated it sounds like the Emperor just liked the first Primarch he found the best.
Like CotE said, they inherited it

....Point?

The emp has been called the most powerful psyker in multiple instances, 4th-6th rule book and most of the HH books which mention him. Can you name any psykers more powerful than him? Like CotE said also the Gods were actively clouding his foresight. It's hard to see when someone is shining a light in your face, do you say the person is then blind?
07-29-13 04:32 PM
Child-of-the-Emperor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostle View Post
There are several "Psykers" of different species (namely the Eldar) that might have even posed a threat to the Emperor. For instance he was working very hard on developing parts of the Eldar webway for Humanity. (Presumably the Eldar figured that stuff out before the Emperor's balls dropped.)
Not quite. The webway was created by the Old Ones and then inherited by the Eldar.

The problem the Emperor had was that he couldn't replicate the material used in the webway's creation to build an artificial bridge in order to 'hack in' to the established network from the Imperial Palace. Thus he had to use his own psychic powers (via the Golden Throne) to maintain an artificial bridge by which Imperial troops could then access the wider webway network. This cannot be used as evidence to suggest Eldar psykers rivalled the Emperor's power. In fact, although it is impossible to prove either way, it does seem that the Emperor was the most powerful psyker the galaxy had ever seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostle View Post
Also it is specifically stated that if Humanity had not expanded that the Earth would be prone to Xenos and/or Chaos influence.
So?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostle View Post
I do not think the Emperor was the most powerful Psyker, he was certainly not as gifted in foresight as he thought he was. Blinded by love for a son...REALLY? Considering the way some of the Emperor's son's were treated it sounds like the Emperor just liked the first Primarch he found the best.
The Chaos Gods actively worked to hinder the Emperor's foresight in the build-up to the Heresy. Again, this can hardly be used as evidence to suggest he wasn't the most powerful psyker.
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