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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-20-11, 09:02 AM Thread Starter
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Preliminary ideas for CSM fandex

So basically my idea for a new CSM fandex centers around the idea that the CSM fight for themselves and have a lust for power that sometimes becomes harmful to those around them. Here are my ideas for the new dex. A little unorganized but this is still very early

No icons or marks for nilla CSM. But still use the current cult troops

Lieutenant sorceror- elite choice- up to 3 per slot- attach to squads (except zerks or anything with MoK- powers that mimic old icons (+1 to invul, fleet and +1 attack, etc) will have wargear options so can fit with bikes and termis etc- doubles rolled for psychic power will cause one wound to be inflicted on attached squad with armour saves allowed. Such is the price of strength

Dreadclaws- no inertial guidance system- because ofthe tendency of the machine spirit to fuck with its passengers whenever the dreadclaw lands roll a D6. On a 2+ passengers are safe. On a 1 every model takes a wound w/ armor saves. Dreads take a glancing hit. Can re-deepstrike. Armed with deathwind

Sorceror gets a psychic hood

Dread fire frenzy rule will target nearest enemy unit first before friendly

Parasitic possession for land raider- loses transport capacity but may fire all allowed weapons twice and target up to two units. However at the beginning of every turn roll a D6 on a 1 the raider suffers a pen hit and a 2 suffers a glance as the parasitic deamon eats away

Adding blood slaughters and blight drones from imperial armour 7

Bikes 25pts -scout rule- but every time turbo boost count as dangerous terrain

CC weapons will be cheaper than SM but ranged will be more expensive

Raptors gain hit and run

What do y'all think? I am welcome to more ideas

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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-21-11, 11:24 PM
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Not bad, has a sort of theme going for it. I would recommend really thinking about the theme and feel of the army before you go any further because you gotta kind of a theme going but you definitely need to narrow it down a bit. You seem to be going for a CC super fast army with lots of power? you might have to make your ranged weps so expensive they would be useless, make your army super expensive or do the sensible thing (in my opinion) and focus and make your army good at one thing. You army has a powerful offense but no downsides on the defense and gets special apocalypse units so your going to have to tone down something, that's why I recommend of thinking of your army theme first so you know what exactly you want your army to be good at adn what exactly you want your army to be bad at.
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-22-11, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Freak220 View Post
No icons or marks for nilla CSM. But still use the current cult troops
Not initially keen on this. Perhaps a Chapter Tactics style system, where a character of a particular mark grants non Cult Troops with the chance to swap a rule for a marks rules free of charge.

Quote:
Lieutenant sorceror- elite choice- up to 3 per slot- attach to squads (except zerks or anything with MoK- powers that mimic old icons (+1 to invul, fleet and +1 attack, etc) will have wargear options so can fit with bikes and termis etc- doubles rolled for psychic power will cause one wound to be inflicted on attached squad with armour saves allowed. Such is the price of strength
Not that keen on this idea, tbh. I'd much prefer to allow Champions to be upgraded to Sorcerors. Spamming Psychic Powers would be as annoying as SW's, who don't have to make a choice between Psyker or Combat Character. Able to take a Chaos Lord, and up to 9 Sorcerors with Force Weapons, and Psychic Powers like Bolt of Tzeentch. Upgrading Champions actually shows they are something special, picked out from their peers by the Chaos Gods.

Quote:
Dreadclaws- no inertial guidance system- because ofthe tendency of the machine spirit to fuck with its passengers whenever the dreadclaw lands roll a D6. On a 2+ passengers are safe. On a 1 every model takes a wound w/ armor saves. Dreads take a glancing hit. Can re-deepstrike. Armed with deathwind
Not keen on this idea. Because SM have something doesn't automatically mean Chaos have to get it. They're rarely integral to the Chaos Deployment system, and SM actually need SOMETHING which makes them worth taking. So, now we have chaos with cheap sorcerors, good magic powers, Daemon Princes, and Drop Pods. Yeah.

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Sorceror gets a psychic hood
Hopefully by a different name, and that's even if they need it.

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Dread fire frenzy rule will target nearest enemy unit first before friendly
Nah. But make it less random, so a basically a Ld Test (count as Ld10 blah blah).

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Parasitic possession for land raider- loses transport capacity but may fire all allowed weapons twice and target up to two units. However at the beginning of every turn roll a D6 on a 1 the raider suffers a pen hit and a 2 suffers a glance as the parasitic deamon eats away
Fire all allowed weapons twice? So, Havocs become even more useless? Perhaps reduce it's standard cost, and Parasitic Possession just gives it PotMS.

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Adding blood slaughters and blight drones from imperial armour 7
Hell yes. Work on the rules for the Impaler though (perhaps a 12" range, S4 AP3 Assault 1, if it hits, then the blood slaughterer has a 12" assault range, and vehicles without a WS count as being immobile until the end of that assault phase).

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Bikes 25pts -scout rule- but every time turbo boost count as dangerous terrain
No. Same cost, +1pts, every Bolter can be replaced by a combi weapon, bike can be taken as troops with Special Character

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CC weapons will be cheaper than SM but ranged will be more expensive
Can't see why. Pigeon holing them into CC Marines with spikes is not how they roll.

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Raptors gain hit and run
Bit too good a rule. Give them jetpacks however - Daemon Enhanced and greater technology of the original jump packs does better.

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What do y'all think? I am welcome to more ideas
Bring back the option for Chosen to take Terminator Armour (so say 20pts per model, every models may exchange their Power Armour, BP and CCW for TL Bolter, Power Weapon and Terminator Armour, +18pts), can take multiple champions per squad (and each can be taken as Sorcerors as per previous rule).



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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-22-11, 01:02 AM Thread Starter
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First of all. Thank you both for takin the time to comment. This forum doesn't really get a lot of posts. So I really appreciate it.

@yshabash. Basically the theme is just a more CC oriented version of SM. Which they are already. With some powerful upgrades, but also a chaotic chance or hurting themselves. What kinds of defensive penalties did you have in mind?

@Vaz. Yeah i like the chapter tactics idea

I never even thought about spamming sorcerors, so I might go with the ability to upgrade the champs. Although the lieutenant sorcerors weren't gonna have access to bolt of chance or warptime or any of those spells. they would only have access to powers that function like the icons of the CSM codex (+1 attack and fleet on the charge, or +1 Initiative in CC, etc)

As far as the dreadclaw thing, i wasn't too too keen on it either. However there is quite a history of CSM using them. They were used by SMs too, until the machine spirit started goin haywire and caused a bunch of "accidents" Plus there is the chance that you could kill your squad so it makes it a chaosy version

The psychic hood is kinda necessary because why would a librarian who turned to chaos just get rid of it? It's too good to lose in the laundry

The dread fire frenzy has to stay random. I don't wanna change too many things and have people think i just took out all the crappy parts of the CSM codex and replaced it with better stuff

I really like the parasitic possession. it fits the theme of power but at a risk. And i'm not too worried about obsoleting havocs. they are already obsolete with oblits The parasitic possession allows you to take another HQ choice other than oblits that's still viable. But a land raider with deamonic possession and parasitic will run you upwards of 260 so its more than oblits.

Yeah i'll tweak the apoc units a bit

The bikes suck ass at the current point cost, but 25 may be too low. Combi weapons seems a bit strange. I don't like the bikes can be taken as troops thing though. That's more of SM thing

As far as CC weapons bein cheaper. that's the point As far as more expensive, i just meant using the same points cost in the current dex since every weapon is already about 10 pts more than the SM equivalent. not that i would make them EVEN more expensive

Ok, i'll drop hit and run for some sort of upgrade. any ideas?

I'll fix the chosen too.

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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-22-11, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Freak220 View Post
I never even thought about spamming sorcerors, so I might go with the ability to upgrade the champs. Although the lieutenant sorcerors weren't gonna have access to bolt of chance or warptime or any of those spells. they would only have access to powers that function like the icons of the CSM codex (+1 attack and fleet on the charge, or +1 Initiative in CC, etc)
I tend to view potential lists for competitive value (strange for a fluff based army developement forum, I know), so hopefully that helps create balanced lists without too much spammability. Not too sure on the Priest-esque powers - that's just a copy paste which I'm not too keen on. Massed Squad Psykers (to let Khorne not be left out, you could perhaps give them USR's).

Quote:
As far as the dreadclaw thing, i wasn't too too keen on it either. However there is quite a history of CSM using them. They were used by SMs too, until the machine spirit started goin haywire and caused a bunch of "accidents" Plus there is the chance that you could kill your squad so it makes it a chaosy version
Fair enough. If you're not keen on putting in something, then don't put it in. It's your codex after all.

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The psychic hood is kinda necessary because why would a librarian who turned to chaos just get rid of it? It's too good to lose in the laundry
Only meant by a different name. IIRC, Psychic Hoods weren't developed.

Quote:
The dread fire frenzy has to stay random. I don't wanna change too many things and have people think i just took out all the crappy parts of the CSM codex and replaced it with better stuff
Fair enough. A Ld Test before the start of the turn could make it slightly more reliable, but still be a risk to get blown up. Also, I'd make them Veteran so that they're tough. Can't really imagine "new" Dreadnoughts.

Quote:
I really like the parasitic possession. it fits the theme of power but at a risk. And i'm not too worried about obsoleting havocs. they are already obsolete with oblits The parasitic possession allows you to take another HQ choice other than oblits that's still viable. But a land raider with deamonic possession and parasitic will run you upwards of 260 so its more than oblits.
When you're creating a ruleset, you NEVER intentionally design something as being useless, relatively or otherwise. It's like making a unit of Troops Slot as never counting as Scoring.

Quote:
The bikes suck ass at the current point cost, but 25 may be too low. Combi weapons seems a bit strange. I don't like the bikes can be taken as troops thing though. That's more of SM thing
Combi Weapons is merely to stop them becoming a Havoc Squad on Bikes, while giving rapid anti-infantry/armour redeployment. Fair enough on the bikes. 25pts is fine. They might become useful ten.

Quote:
As far as CC weapons bein cheaper. that's the point As far as more expensive, i just meant using the same points cost in the current dex since every weapon is already about 10 pts more than the SM equivalent. not that i would make them EVEN more expensive
Can't see why exactly, as nothing points to that in the fluff. And the codices are built for another edition, so Pts costs are off.

Quote:
Ok, i'll drop hit and run for some sort of upgrade. any ideas?
Um, yeah, Jetpacks instead of jump packs.



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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-22-11, 07:23 PM
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Ok now I understand. I would say give them one of the following special rules so you have more excuses to make their attacks overly powerful :p

Cruelty of the gods: Every time a unit with this rule takes a wound roll a D6 for every wound, on a roll of a 1 put a large blast template over the center of the unit at S4 auto hit (give to most basic troops)

Random Ldr: all units with this rule have a random Ldr every turn, to calculate this roll a D6+5. subtract 1 from this Ldr for every 3 models killed from that unit that turn, rounding up.

What do you think?
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-22-11, 08:50 PM Thread Starter
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@yshabash. i was thinking about doing something with the missed hits in CC but failed wounds makes more sense. possibly a way to combine your two rules would be have them start at Ld9 or 10 (Depending on champ) and then for every 25% casualties suffered the squad would be at minus Ld. the first 25% would be -1 Ld for the rest of the game. then when they lose another 25% they suffer a -2 to their current Ld (or -3 from the statline) and then a further 25% would be a -3 (or -6 from statline). so basically when you are down to 2 or 3 men you will be at Ld 3. this could represent the realization of the csms that they are losing the fight and need to save their ass. so they run away.

@Vaz. I think i'll just drop the lieutenant sorceror idea. and have wargear options for the champs that confer the special rules of the gods but only if there is the appropriate HQ choice. For example if you take an HQ with the MoK then all champs are allowed to take the talisman of burning blood which gives their squad +1 attack and furious charge.

i know there was a tzeentchy version of a psychic hood in the 3.5 ed codex. not quite as good but it still nullified psychic powers i believe. so there's gotta be some history. in your honest opinion do you feel CSM should have a hood?

How can i take a Ld test on a dread

I could just take havocs out of the codex completely. That way i wouldn't be making other units in the codex obsolete them, because they don't exist anyways

As far as the bikes go i was thinking of bumping them up to 30 pts but then giving them some kinds of deamonic upgrades. like speed which will let them move an addition 6'' when turbo boosting but then count as in dangerous terrain. or maybe +2 attacks on the charge but then for every one rolled to hit, it goes against the biker squad (like kharn's thing). that kind of stuff that would make them more fun but still have that chaosy chance of killing yourself. i'm startin to like the combi weapon idea more tho

as far as true fluff. i don't know much about CSM. as far as my fluff, they excell in CC but it does kinda seem that the current codex was built around CSM getting into combat, that's where my thoughts came from

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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-23-11, 11:33 PM Thread Starter
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so i just read a great article by angelofhope and am tryin to incorporate some of his ideas into my fandex.

a 0-2 restriction on cult troops. but an HQ bearing their respective mark will release the limit

maybe TH/SS but i'm not too crazy about that

be able to pay for possessed abilities

give a khornate chainaxe option to zerks which will confer rending and make sonic weapons standard for noise marines

here are the mark rules copy and pasted from angel's article

MARK OF KHORNE:
+1 Attack, Furious Charge. A Lord or Daemon Prince with the Mark of Khorne may remove the 0-1 limit for Khorne Berzerkers, and allows vehicles in the army to bear the Mark of Khorne. On Tanks, the Mark makes them count as 1 AV higher when ramming, and when tank shocking, any models forced to move suffer a wound on a roll of 4+, armour saves allowed. On Walkers, it confers +1 Attack and Furious Charge.

MARK OF NURGLE:
+1 Toughness, Feel No Pain. A Lord or Daemon Prince with the Mark of Nurgle may remove the 0-1 limit for Plague Marines. and allows vehicles in the army to bear the Mark of Nurgle. Vehicles with the Mark on Nurgle are surrounded by sickly smoke and clouds of infectious insects. They get a 5+ cover save and in addition have the same effect as Nurgle's Rot. Walkers with the Mark of Nurgle are also considered as being armed with defensive & assault grenades.

MARK OF SLAANESH:
+1 Initiative, Hit & Run. A Lord or Daemon Prince with the Mark of Slaanesh may remove the 0-1 limit for Noise Marines. Walkers with the Mark of Slaanesh get +1 Initiative and the Hit & Run rule. Tanks with the Mark of Slaanesh have the same effect as a Dirge Caster (commulative with another Dirge Caster). In addition, all vehicles of Slaanesh are able to replace weapons with Sonic Weapons.

MARK OF TZEENTCH:
5+ Invulnerable Save (or improve an existing Invulnerable Save by 1 if already existing), use two Psychic Powers/Turn (even the same power twice. Chaos Lords with the Mark of Tzeentch confer a +1 bonus to Reserve rolls due to their oratory skills). A Lord or Daemon Prince with the Mark of Tzeentch may remove the 0-1 limit for Thousand Sons.

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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-24-11, 10:36 AM
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I believe 0-1 on the cult Troops is more like it, so that someone can't field his only 2 compulsory Troops as cult Troops unless he uses an HQ with the appropriate mark.

Oh, I forgot to write Mark of Tzeentch for vehicles: 5+ Invulnerable Save, and Walkers would be able to cast a psychic power (makes sense, since a Tzeentch Daemon possessing a Defiler would sure have a trick up its sleeve! Tzeentch -thousand sons- dreads may only contain Sorcerers, as the rest of the Legion are ghosts in armour).

As for Raptors, Hit&Run is something they always had in the 2 previous codices, that's what characterized them. In the 3ed. codex, they also had those howls, and enemies had to make a Morale check when assaulted by them (so you could win combat before it even began), that indeed was overpowered. Raptors must get their Hit&Run back, that makes them different than Assault Squads & Vanguard (hey, Vanguard may assault as they Deep Strike!) and keep their 20pts/model (Assault Marines cost 18 and are better at the moment -They Shall Know No Fear-, Vanguard cost 20 and are much better as well).



PS: I think I'll replace Mark of Slaanesh's "Hit&Run" with "Fleet", sounds more Slaanesh-y ;)

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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-24-11, 10:58 AM
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It seems that the purpose of your fandex is to take everything good in the Space Marine codex and make it better by adding Chaos Marks. That is a very poor strategy into making a codex.

Start by looking at what makes Chaos Marines into Chaos Marines and go from there, rather than simple cherry picking the good bits out of the SM codex and making them better.

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