TKE Presents: Provisional Chaos Legions Heavy Support Thread - Featuring Mark rules! - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-11-11, 10:07 PM Thread Starter
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TKE Presents: Provisional Chaos Legions Heavy Support Thread - Featuring Mark rules!

As it stands, the following will be the HS options in the Legions Codex:

Havocs
Chaos Predator
Chaos Vindicator
Obliterator Cult
Daemon Engine


Note the absence of the Defiler, and (less notable) the Chaos Dreadnought. At the moment, I am planning for those to be Fast Attack and Elite, respectively.


Without much further ado then, the Rules for Chaos Marks!

Mark of Nurgle: Models with the Mark of Nurgle benefit from the following USRs: Feel No Pain, Slow and Purposeful. They also gain one to their T value - generally making them T4(5)

Mark of Chaos Glory: Models with the Mark of Chaos Glory increase their Ld to 10, and benefit from the Stubborn USR.

Mark of Tzeentch: Models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain a 3++ Invulnerable Save.

Mark of Slaanesh: Models with the Mark of Slaanesh gain one to their base I value, and gain the Fearless USR.

Mark of Khorne: Models with the Mark of Khorne gain one Attack, and benefit from the following USRs: Fearless, Furious Charge.

Legion Mark: Models with a Legion Mark benefit from the First Founding special rule.

[DESIGNERS NOTES - Cult Troops (ie, Zerks) don't actually 'bear' their respective Marks, and often get slightly different net results - this is intentional.

Also, the Legion Mark interacts with characters such as a Disciple of Ecstasy, Warsmith, or Herald of Nurgle to replace 'First Founding' with whatever bonus I give that Legion (see here) in that Character's Special Rules.]

Now, on to Heavy Support. I have a double-dose for tonight, you lucky lucky people are getting first Havocs and then Oblits!

Havocs I took a strange direction with, so a little blurb:

I want the army to be mostly about killing Marines. Heresy broke out, most Legions dumped their Hand Flamers, cos the Xenos killing part was done - and they grabbed Plasma. So the army is slightly centred around Plasma alternatives to genuine anti-tank.

Also, I was thinking partly of the old Tarantula, Rapier Laser Destroyer and Mole Mortar...and I didn't want Chaos to be left out on the retro-style fun of the Thunderfire, without mimicking the unit. Feedback even more appreciated than usual.


Havocs: 100 points.

Havoc: WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld7 Sv3+
Havoc Team: WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A3 Ld7 Sv3+
Havoc Champion: WS4 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+

Unit: 5 Havocs
Type: Infantry
Wargear: Boltgun, Bolt pistol, CCW, Power Armour, Frag and Krak Grenades.
Dedicated Transport: [email protected]
Options: Add up to 7 additional [email protected]/model
Up to 4 models may replace their Boltgun with one of the following:
[email protected] ; Plasmagun at 10pts ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; Missile [email protected] ; Heavy [email protected] ; [email protected] ; Plasma [email protected] ; Reaper [email protected]

One model may be upgraded to a Havoc [email protected]
A Champion may replace any of his weapons with: Power [email protected] ; Power [email protected] ; Plasma [email protected] ; Lightning [email protected] ; Plasma [email protected]

Two models may be replaced with a Havoc [email protected]. A Havoc Team is armed with a Havoc Missile Launcher, Bolt Pistol, CCW, F&K Grenades and wears Power Armour. In addition, it is Relentless, and Bulky.

One model may carry an Icon of the [email protected]

Every model in the unit may purchase a Mark of the Gods at the points cost below:
[email protected]/model ; [email protected]/model ; [email protected]/model ; [email protected]/model ; [email protected]/model ; Legion [email protected]/model. - All models must bear the same Mark.


Obliterator Cult: 60 points.

Obliterator: WS4 BS4 S5 T6 W2 I2 A3 Ld10 Sv3+/5+

Unit: 1 Obliterator
Type: Infantry
Special Rules: Fearless, Slow and Purposeful, Deep Strike.
Wargear: Power Fist, Obliterator Weapons.
Options: Add up to 4 [email protected]/model.

Obliterator Weapons:
Each turn (decided in the Shooting Phase) the weapons configure themselves into one of the following (this effect applies until the end of the owning player's next Movement Phase) :
Plasma Cannon ; Twin-Linked Plasma Gun ; Lascannon ; Multi-Melta ; Twin-Linked Meltagun ; Twin-Linked Flamer ; Power Fist.


Thoughts, then?
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-11-11, 10:10 PM
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3++ invul is way! to powerful.


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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-11-11, 10:21 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aboytervigon View Post
3++ invul is way! to powerful.
Hrmm, it might be too cheap atm.

However - it doesn't REALLY improve their save.

I mean, what AP3 weapons are common?

I can only think of Fire Prisms and Battlecannon really.
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-11-11, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKingElessar View Post
Hrmm, it might be too cheap atm.

However - it doesn't REALLY improve their save.

I mean, what AP3 weapons are common?

I can only think of Fire Prisms and Battlecannon really.
#cough# krak missles #cough#

the other issue i have with a 3++ is that it doesnt just negate AP3, but AP 1 and 2 as well. That means all of the anti-marine weapons are useless against them. looking at this option, why the hell would you NOT go all-tzeentch? its a huge bonus for no drawbacks as far as i can see

and can we not do away with all this t4(5) rubbish and just go for a straight t5? it doesnt impact anything other than instant death, which is negated vs. 1 wound models anyway. t5 just keeps it simpler but does add a small bonus for characters which might encourage its usage more- with s+purpose on it i see MoN as quite weak in comparison with the rest. FnP is nice but lack of fearless concerns me

and the oblits stil worry me, as they are still extremely cost effective but now can be taken in much larger units- 15 oblits anyone? yeh, its hideously expensive but with T6 and a huge variety of weapons it will hit like a tonne of lead bricks

otherwise im liking the direction it is going, especially with the legion mark- that is a very nice touch

just my 2 pence

A little bit annoyed to come back to HO and find I've lost close to 200 rep.....
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-11-11, 10:52 PM
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3++ invul is very nice and I think we've been spoiled a bit by marine codices who receive it cheaply through storm shields. That said, unless the marines who can take 3++ are incredibly potent offensively, it does nothing to protect them from being torrented or help them kill enemies.

What I find most questionable is the price increase on havocs (up to 20 points per model) with the champion reduced to LD9 and the Havocs reduced to LD7. How can the havocs compete with the updated obliterators outlined below them?

Although you did reduce the obliterator armor save I guess to compensate for their larger unit availability now.

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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-11-11, 11:07 PM
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3++ is good, but should +10pts/model.

No no. Obliterators should not be elite. Not sure what you've got as plans for elites, but they're effectively Cult Troops. Perhaps a Special Character/DIY Trait which gives them the ability to be taken as either or, but currently, they're too good.

MoT - what about giving them +1 Wound/+2 Toughness and a "Wraithsight" for standard troops?

And MoS Havocs should be able to take Blastmasters. And Fearless, no I don't think so. I don't see Slaanesh as being so inured that they don't know when to flee - perhaps on a double, they pass the morale check, regardless of modifiers.

Why can Havoc AspChamps not take combi-weapons? Not too sure on the 6 Man Missile Team for 150pts.



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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-11-11, 11:40 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_m1ke View Post
#cough# krak missles #cough#

the other issue i have with a 3++ is that it doesnt just negate AP3, but AP 1 and 2 as well. That means all of the anti-marine weapons are useless against them. looking at this option, why the hell would you NOT go all-tzeentch? its a huge bonus for no drawbacks as far as i can see

and can we not do away with all this t4(5) rubbish and just go for a straight t5? it doesnt impact anything other than instant death, which is negated vs. 1 wound models anyway. t5 just keeps it simpler but does add a small bonus for characters which might encourage its usage more- with s+purpose on it i see MoN as quite weak in comparison with the rest. FnP is nice but lack of fearless concerns me

and the oblits stil worry me, as they are still extremely cost effective but now can be taken in much larger units- 15 oblits anyone? yeh, its hideously expensive but with T6 and a huge variety of weapons it will hit like a tonne of lead bricks

otherwise im liking the direction it is going, especially with the legion mark- that is a very nice touch

just my 2 pence
Damn Krak!

Well, hopefully when the whole lot are done running Mono-Tzeentch won't be a no-brainer. I plan to make it so that Legion builds are possible and good, but not invalidating Black Legion too. It isn't easy, but I think I'm doing okay so far.

As for T4(5) - well, Plague Marines [Spoilers!] are T5 base with FnP and Relentless rather than SnP - they just simply get a better MoN than other Nurgle Troops. I want to promote Death Guard over mono-Nurgle where possible, without ruining mono-Nurgle. hence the Reap...oops, nearly said too much!

Oblits-wise, 3 costs 220, so only 5 less than present incarnation. I haven't had a chance to playtest these rules, largely because they aren't all finished, and because it would take one guy a very long time to do so - but the loss of the 2+ could prove huge, especially with no increase to Invul. Perhaps T6 should go down to T5 though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by killmaimburn View Post
3++ invul is very nice and I think we've been spoiled a bit by marine codices who receive it cheaply through storm shields. That said, unless the marines who can take 3++ are incredibly potent offensively, it does nothing to protect them from being torrented or help them kill enemies.

What I find most questionable is the price increase on havocs (up to 20 points per model) with the champion reduced to LD9 and the Havocs reduced to LD7. How can the havocs compete with the updated obliterators outlined below them?

Although you did reduce the obliterator armor save I guess to compensate for their larger unit availability now.
By halving most of the options for Havocs I hoped to offset the increase - making the availability of Fearless/better Ld somewhat cheap too. You may be right, they may just not be good enough - but they have the option of sitting inside a Rhino with 2 ML out the top hatch for 155, or two Autocannon for 165. Either of these is at least as good as 2 Oblits for 140, IMO.

I may be wrong - and if anyone else wants to help me playtest the Codexes when done I will shower them with gratitude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
3++ is good, but should +10pts/model.

No no. Obliterators should not be elite. Not sure what you've got as plans for elites, but they're effectively Cult Troops. Perhaps a Special Character/DIY Trait which gives them the ability to be taken as either or, but currently, they're too good.

MoT - what about giving them +1 Wound/+2 Toughness and a "Wraithsight" for standard troops?

And MoS Havocs should be able to take Blastmasters. And Fearless, no I don't think so. I don't see Slaanesh as being so inured that they don't know when to flee - perhaps on a double, they pass the morale check, regardless of modifiers.

Why can Havoc AspChamps not take combi-weapons? Not too sure on the 6 Man Missile Team for 150pts.
I really like the idea of the Wraithsight conceptually. Unfortunately, I don't much like it mechanically - it's awkward at best. the simplification of Red Thirst seems a move away from that by GW, and I'm more than happy to go along with it - even if I don't plan to remove Chaos Dreads randomness.

I take the point on Slaanesh, but would rather have a USR than create a new rule, where possible. Given the volume of units and necessity of creating a bunch of new rules, I am very concerned about the need to keep it simple. That issue is one to come back to upon completion of all units, not a part-way through job...even if the idea of leaving it as is may colour my future unit-writing.

As regards Blastmasters - I take that point too, but it would be too unwieldy to put them in the generic options. In addition, Blastmasters are Emperor's Children specific, IMO - so if they go in they go under Legion rules on the Disciple of Ecstasy - that is (part of) why they are not available to Predators.

RE: Oblits - see above comments, but my hope is that they compete with Havocs and Possessed Predators without being obviously better.

It is also my hope that it is possible for a Chaos army to compete WITHOUT Heavy Support. My Fast Attacks will be sauce.

Pricing of the 3++ will be addressed. I had felt it too cheap, partly why they got one 'boost' opposed to 2/3 for the others.

Oh, and Combi-Weps now only go on Rhinos, Dreadclaws, and Terminator Armour.

Sorry. lol
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-12-11, 03:09 AM
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What is a havoc missile launcher?

Also my critiques:

Drop the plasma gun and lightning claw upgrades on the havoc champ.
Make all the oblits the same cost, same with havocs. The extra models shouldn't be cheaper that doesn't make any sense
The missile launcher should be the same price as the autocannon
Make all the oblits 80 pts. Change the statline to 4 4 4 5 2 4 2 2+/5+
otherwise lose deep strike
max oblit squad should be 3. they perform just fine at 3 in the CSM codex. at 5 they will be too good. And there would also be no reason to get havocs as 5 oblits would have more weapons
3++ is too good for an entire unit. (don't care how you defend it)
give the havocs a way to split fire or at least a tank hunter upgrade

i gotta go now but i'll be back for more

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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-12-11, 03:20 AM Thread Starter
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I will return to this - but TSons will have a 3++ universally, guaranteed.
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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-12-11, 03:22 AM
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My only comment is fluffy... and I will comment more on the scores later etc.

Plasma?!!!!! You know after hefting about a plasma gun that has a 1 in 6 chance of blowing up everytime I use it. You think CSM's would have ditched them some time in the last 10,000 odd years. How could even 1 be still going..... well battle 650 for the century... hope old plasie doesnt break down today and melt my arm off? LOL...

CSM would have no plasma unless they captured it. all of the orginal stuff guns and pistols surely would have fried up in the centuries since. I think they would be more likely to be using autocannons and heavy stubbers etc, even autoguns as combi parts of weapons. Easy and cheap to manufacture stuff or stuff they can capture easily.

Plasma tech is far too.... easily destroyed for them to be using it so often. Even melta would work better as an edge I feel.
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