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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-11-15, 12:33 PM Thread Starter
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Default Chaos Space Marines Detachments and Formations

As it seems that we still have to wait for undefinite time before getting a new version of the Chaos Space Marines Codex, I have finalized the "version 0" of something I started to write a few months ago, when we were discussing about CSM specific potential rules and nature (with @neferhet, @Mossy Toes and @Squire, amongst others).

It describes some "fluffy" (and, hopefully, not too "cheesy") detachments and formations and tries to provide a coherent answer to the "What makes CSM different from SM ?" question.

http://www.alt-f4.be/resources/w40k/...Formations.pdf

The purpose of this document is to provide something balanced and coherent that could be proposed to opponents in order to play games different than "A full Nurgle list with Bikes and Flying Daemon Prince" against harder army lists while giving a somehow more "fluffy" touch to the setting.

Feel free to advise and contribute. Such project always gets benefits from the input of several brains (and I know some of my cons, like the one which leads me to too much balance)

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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-11-15, 07:21 PM
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I think those are brilliant formations. Plenty of flavour, not too strong and exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see in a future codex

The only formation that stands out as particularly strong is the dark mechanicum one. A player could go mental with heldrakes and/or maulerfiends, and I could imagine a death star being made with those fleshmetal chosen on bikes, with mark of nurgle, a couple of power fists and attached characters. Alternatively mark of slaanesh and icon of excess. Not that that's a criticism, I don't see why anybody would try to exploit these formations

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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-12-15, 05:43 PM
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i think you should send this to the fukken gw development tem (they still have one right?? right??)
chosen on bikes? with jetpacks? HELL YEAH!

note:
Shoot This Down : flakk missiles are available for all missile launchers and only cost 10 pts.

the base cost for the flakk is already 10 pts...

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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-12-15, 07:46 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you for your advises and positive comments

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Originally Posted by Squire View Post
I think those are brilliant formations. Plenty of flavour, not too strong and exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see in a future codex

The only formation that stands out as particularly strong is the dark mechanicum one. A player could go mental with heldrakes and/or maulerfiends, and I could imagine a death star being made with those fleshmetal chosen on bikes, with mark of nurgle, a couple of power fists and attached characters. Alternatively mark of slaanesh and icon of excess. Not that that's a criticism, I don't see why anybody would try to exploit these formations
That's the point now ... I've tried to put up some balanced formations, but it's maybe not the case. I have put a Dark Mechanicum formation because I think that, regarding the fluff, there must be one. I don't, however, play with Daemonforge fiends or drakes, so it's more difficult for me to imagine what could be made of it.

If ever someone gets other proposals for that formation (or for any other, or for some aspects of the fluff that wouldn't be covered, or anything else), feel free to post and discuss it ;)

The second level of balance comes from the combination of all Detachments and Formations. I've tried to balance them individually for version 0, but doing it while taking all combinations into account is not so easy.

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i think you should send this to the fukken gw development tem (they still have one right?? right??)
chosen on bikes? with jetpacks? HELL YEAH!

note:
Shoot This Down : flakk missiles are available for all missile launchers and only cost 10 pts.

the base cost for the flakk is already 10 pts...
Good note for the flakk. I have changed it to "for free". I have also added a "Primary detachment" condition for the night fighting advantages of the Terror Warband.

Regarding GW, I still (even if it looks like an utopy) believe in the power of internet and community (Blood Bowl showed it can work, even if the scale is definitely not the same). If such local initiatives might, at least, make GW understand that weakest codices (because CSM is not the only one concerned) need temporary detachments/formations (far more than a "Helbrutes Dataslate") before the future release of a new version, that would be a great success.

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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-13-15, 06:00 AM
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The only real "complaint" I have is that I wish that for the 4 gods list would have "All units in this formation gain the Mark of ____ for free" - not too OP I think.

Also I think you should just make it 1-6 troops (since currently the cult units become troops with the appropriate HQ) and just state that there must be at least 1 squad of Noise Marines/TSons/Zerkers/Plague marines.

----

For the Slaanesh one - why not state that every vehicle gains a Dirge Caster + the ability to swap a heavy weapon - helps with units that do not have heavy weapon - aka rhinos.

----

"Children of the Warp"

Why not just let the possessed just choose which power they want, instead of a re-roll?

----

"Dark Mechanicum"

Just grant Demonic possession to the vehicles; I would drop Siege Crawler from the list of USRs granted.

State that CSM models cannot take a Mark.

----

No Traitor Guard Formations?

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Last edited by Fallen; 12-13-15 at 06:08 AM.
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-13-15, 02:10 PM
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Had to chip in. A few interesting thoughts, mostly based around my love of Thousand Sons.

1. So many Chosen. I like that you're trying to upgrade them and make them useful, but at the same time... I dunno. Maybe a bit much? Granted, since I never play Chosen (which is is meant to deal with)...

2. Dusty Souls Formation. Personal request, change 'Favored by Tzeentch' to 'The Sorcerer Commands'. Only because that's what the 3E rule used to call it. I'd also REQUIRE one of the HQs to be a Sorcerer or Ahriman, because, well, Thousand Sons.

3. Sorcerer's Coven. This feels clunky to me. Dark Studies. How does this work? All of the Level 1 Brotherhood of Psykers will either be marked (and therefore have Chaos Focus, and get the free Primaris), or NOT Marked (therefore getting Psychic Focus, and get the free Primaris). Now, the Sorcerers could abuse this, I suppose... if you took 3 rolls on 3 different schools, does that mean you end up with 6 powers (3 primaris)?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
The only real "complaint" I have is that I wish that for the 4 gods list would have "All units in this formation gain the Mark of ____ for free" - not too OP I think.
The problem with the Marks is that it's a cost per model. Depending on the number of squads and models in them, as far as the size of the battle, such advantage could reach hundreds of points.

I would rather leave this open until we may gather other advises.

Quote:
Also I think you should just make it 1-6 troops (since currently the cult units become troops with the appropriate HQ) and just state that there must be at least 1 squad of Noise Marines/TSons/Zerkers/Plague marines.
This eases up the Troops entry of the force organisation, for sure, and allow larger MSU with cultists.

Then, it comes back to something closer to a CAD : 2-6 Troops (one of them being a Cult Marine one).

Quote:
For the Slaanesh one - why not state that every vehicle gains a Dirge Caster + the ability to swap a heavy weapon - helps with units that do not have heavy weapon - aka rhinos.
In matter of points, it would not represent too much (for 10 vehicles, which would already be a lot, dirge casters only cost 50 points).

I like the idea. I just make an "or" condition for it, as Blastmasters upon vehicles is something that just doesn't exist (anymore) in the codex. A rhino would get a Dirge Caster for free, another tank could have both for 5 points, a Helbrute or Daemonforge engine would have to make a choice between them (as they can't be fitted with Chaos Vehicle Equipment by default).

Quote:
"Children of the Warp"

Why not just let the possessed just choose which power they want, instead of a re-roll?
I would love too, as Possessed are the core unit of my Word Bearers army

But some things have to be considered, IMHO :

- "Daemon" is a very powerful trait for Space Marines (5+ invul save, plus their basic 3+ armour save, that can be boosted by Psychic Powers or Daemonic Rewards, and ... Fear, which is globally not very useful until it takes effect) ... it also allows CSM Sorcerers to use Malefic Daemonology without perils on all doubles with the Crimson Slaughter "Prophet of the Voices" relic,

- Chaos Daemons Codex is the most "random" one (Warp Storm table, effects of Exalted Rewards, Daemonic Instability, ...). Therefore, it seems strange to remove the dice for a "Daemonic table" (and I don't see other units able to choose a specific boon from a table each turn),

- When we look where Possessed come from, the current Codex already made them better than they were (3 random boons instead of 6, with more specialized effects), and that has been improved with the Crimson Slaughter "Slaves to the Voices" table.

Shortly speaking, I think that rerolling a 1/3 chance to get the best effect is already a significant boost.

By the way, the "Daemonic Pact" Detachment (which would be the most suited Primary Detachment to a "Children of the Warp" Formation) allows to field up units of Daemon Chosen (compared to the Possessed : no S5, no random table, but the possibility to equip them with AP weapons, bikes or jump packs and no Initiative loss when charging through cover due to offensive grenades).

Quote:
"Dark Mechanicum"

Just grant Demonic possession to the vehicles; I would drop Siege Crawler from the list of USRs granted.

State that CSM models cannot take a Mark.
I just "blindly" gave all vehicles all the traits from each of them. But "Siege Crawler" seems weird, actually (moving Tanks as Beasts seems odd). Even the "Crusader" trait seems odd, as non-Walkers do not Run and do not make Sweeping advances either.

So, this formation would be an advantage for the number of vehicles available, and would "just" give the Daemon and Daemonforge traits to Tanks.

For the Mark, I'm not sure. Is it because it would make Chosen too powerful (given Squire example above) or because the Dark Mechanicum is, fluffy speaking, never dedicated to a specific God ?

In the former case, the question is "Is it too OP (with the Mark of Nurgle and bikes) ?"

In the latter case, it depends on the Dark Mechanicum fluff, IMHO.

Quote:
No Traitor Guard Formations?
No, because Traitor Guard is not present into the current CSM Codex (and also because I do not know them at all ... yet).

One of the ways to give Chaos more diversity and identity would to make FW Traitor Guard Codex into an official GW one (with CSM as Battle Brothers, like Daemons are).

Quote:
Edit: I really like these BTW, just a couple of minor things that I would certainly change.

Show some more?
I don't have more Detachments/Formations in stock. I think those are covering all the aspects of CSM that I have seen in W40K sources.

By the way, I'm quite open to a collective brainstorming in order to improve the base and transform it from an individual to a team work ;)

PS : document modified (Cult Formations, Insane Melody Formation and Dark Mechanicum Formation)

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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-13-15, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xabre View Post
Had to chip in. A few interesting thoughts, mostly based around my love of Thousand Sons.

1. So many Chosen. I like that you're trying to upgrade them and make them useful, but at the same time... I dunno. Maybe a bit much? Granted, since I never play Chosen (which is is meant to deal with)...
I never play Chosen either, because I don't see other use for them than 4 special weapons and a Rhino. They are currently just a specialized unit with no diversity, and no link to the aspects of Chaos favoured by the Warlord and his Band.

And I really feel pity for the Black Legion and its possibility to field up Chosen as Troops.

Chosen are, IMHO, the units that incarnate the identity of the Warband/Legion (the real elites of it). But, in their current definition, and their only one use, it is definitely not the case.

Compared to Loyal Space Marines, they have not been restricted to the Codex Astartes organisation. The more powerful they are in their domain, the most attention they get from the Ruinous Powers.

Ideally, Terminator armour should just be an option for Chosen. But it's difficult to play upon it without modifying the Codex.

Just a last thinking about it : if we have more customizable Chosen at hands, there is far less need to buff up standard CSM, isn't it ?

Quote:
2. Dusty Souls Formation. Personal request, change 'Favored by Tzeentch' to 'The Sorcerer Commands'. Only because that's what the 3E rule used to call it. I'd also REQUIRE one of the HQs to be a Sorcerer or Ahriman, because, well, Thousand Sons.
I didn't know about the wording in 3E. I'll change it in the document (I have used "Favoured by ..." for every God, but it could be better to find out more specific wording for each).

A Sorcerer could be required. But who wouldn't choose one for this formation except for very specific reasons ?

Quote:
3. Sorcerer's Coven. This feels clunky to me. Dark Studies. How does this work? All of the Level 1 Brotherhood of Psykers will either be marked (and therefore have Chaos Focus, and get the free Primaris), or NOT Marked (therefore getting Psychic Focus, and get the free Primaris). Now, the Sorcerers could abuse this, I suppose... if you took 3 rolls on 3 different schools, does that mean you end up with 6 powers (3 primaris)?
That's right for the Brotherhoods of Psykers. It's something basically designed for Marked Sorcerers (but applying to Unmarked too) : As they are forced to generate from their God's list, they won't have Primaris powers if they choose a second one. Here, they can get the Primaris from ONE of their lists.

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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-13-15, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Warp Engines Corruption : vehicles with Daemonic Possession, as far as Helbrutes, gain the Daemon trait
The wording is a little ambiguous, here. Does this mean that any vehicle with the Daemonic Possession upgrade, as well as Helbrutes, gain the Daemon rule?


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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-13-15, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alt-f4 View Post
The problem with the Marks is that it's a cost per model. Depending on the number of squads and models in them, as far as the size of the battle, such advantage could reach hundreds of points.

I would rather leave this open until we may gather other advises.
give it for free to the units that come in the god's sacred number, maybe

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Originally Posted by Lux View Post
The calls of Slaneesh stir so deeply within me, as if I was birthed from the very essence of it. For my ambition to infinitely ascend above all is never ending, like fire within it burns me to ever cindering ash. Lord of light and ascension is who I am, realities burn to ash at my very passing. My luminescence is unparalleled for I am luminosity itself, all light is but a shadow of my silhouette
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