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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-13-15, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by alt-f4 View Post
That's right for the Brotherhoods of Psykers. It's something basically designed for Marked Sorcerers (but applying to Unmarked too) : As they are forced to generate from their God's list, they won't have Primaris powers if they choose a second one. Here, they can get the Primaris from ONE of their lists.
Are you familiar with the Chaos Focus rule? If you take at least one power from your Marked discipline, you auto-generate their Primaris. This is because Chaos can NOT benefit from Psychic Focus, because they can't take all of their powers as Chaos (pretty sure the rule was 'no more than half').

So this will need some rewriting. As written, if an Unmarked Chaos Sorcerer (and the formation doesn't require a mark), takes 3 powers from 3 schools, he gets all 3 primaris, for a total of 6 powers.

Of course, since this only applies (as you intended) to only one Primaris, this means at most 5 powers for a Marked lv3 and 4 powers for an Unmarked lv3.

When you look at it that way, it makes the Sorcerer Coven actually really weak compared to the Librarius (casting on 2+ with access to all those powers), Seer's Council (Casting on 3+ and access to buckets of dice), heck, even the new Psykana Division is more potent, with increases to level by having buddies nearby.

I do love the option to make Chosen into a BoPsykers, so I'd totally keep that. but I feel like maybe the Sorcerers need something a little bit more juicy. I just can't think of what might be more suitable. Maybe you could make the Sorcerers 'Masters'... instead of free Primaris, you demand that they take everything from the same school (ignoring the Mark spells), and in doing so, they can instead choose their powers (or one of them). That would better represent (at least for the Thousand Sons) how each Sorcerer was a master of one Discipline, as per the HH novels.

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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-13-15, 06:24 PM Thread Starter
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The wording is a little ambiguous, here. Does this mean that any vehicle with the Daemonic Possession upgrade, as well as Helbrutes, gain the Daemon rule?
Yes, it does, because Helbrutes cannot buy things from the Chaos Vehicle Equipment list, and that I wanted to bring out the concept of the Possessed Dreadnought (Mhara Gal from FW).

Now, it's a 15 pts free gifts for Helbrutes. Maybe it could be changed to "Helbrutes may buy the Daemonic Possession feature from Chaos Vehicle Equipment list", which therefore would give them the Daemon trait (as for Tanks) ?

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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-13-15, 06:30 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by neferhet View Post
give it for free to the units that come in the god's sacred number, maybe
At first sight, that would create differences between the Cult Formations, knowing that Insane Melody would only need 6 models per squad where Dusty Souls would need 9 (just one less than the second special/heavy weapon, then).

Maybe reducing the cost of the corresponding Icon ?

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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-13-15, 06:47 PM Thread Starter
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Are you familiar with the Chaos Focus rule? If you take at least one power from your Marked discipline, you auto-generate their Primaris. This is because Chaos can NOT benefit from Psychic Focus, because they can't take all of their powers as Chaos (pretty sure the rule was 'no more than half').

So this will need some rewriting. As written, if an Unmarked Chaos Sorcerer (and the formation doesn't require a mark), takes 3 powers from 3 schools, he gets all 3 primaris, for a total of 6 powers.

Of course, since this only applies (as you intended) to only one Primaris, this means at most 5 powers for a Marked lv3 and 4 powers for an Unmarked lv3.

When you look at it that way, it makes the Sorcerer Coven actually really weak compared to the Librarius (casting on 2+ with access to all those powers), Seer's Council (Casting on 3+ and access to buckets of dice), heck, even the new Psykana Division is more potent, with increases to level by having buddies nearby.

I do love the option to make Chosen into a BoPsykers, so I'd totally keep that. but I feel like maybe the Sorcerers need something a little bit more juicy. I just can't think of what might be more suitable. Maybe you could make the Sorcerers 'Masters'... instead of free Primaris, you demand that they take everything from the same school (ignoring the Mark spells), and in doing so, they can instead choose their powers (or one of them). That would better represent (at least for the Thousand Sons) how each Sorcerer was a master of one Discipline, as per the HH novels.
I knew about it for Daemons (who automatically know the Primaris of the God they come from, even if they choose all of their powers from other lists - giving them a second Primaris if they generate in one only, if I'm not mistaken).

I have tried to write it to tell that "If a Sorcerer generates powers from several lists (including the mandatory one), he may get the Primaris from (only) one of them". Now that they have their God's Primaris by default, it would mean that they would also get the Primaris from one of the other ones (so, 4 powers for a level 2, and 5 for a level 3). An unmarked would only have 3 powers for a level 2 and 4 powers for a level 3 (whether they generate from 1 or more lists).

Now, let's keep it aside, as far as the Chaos Focus was not taken into account. We may play upon the treshold for generating Warp Charges, but we already have access to the spell familiar.

Feel (you, or any other member) free to propose something alternative. I'll check everything related to Sorcerers and try to set up something on my side too (keeping in mind that, if that could match the Thousand Sons, it should not match Thousand Sons only and should be usable to other Warbands/Legions).

I'm glad to see that this topic is starting up well and that all the ideas discussed here help to improve the first draft ;)

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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-14-15, 02:48 AM
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Whatever you think is best, I was just making sure that's what you meant. ;) Helbrutes can use all the help they can get.


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post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-14-15, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Squire View Post
A player could go mental with heldrakes and/or maulerfiends, and I could imagine a death star being made with those fleshmetal chosen on bikes, with mark of nurgle, a couple of power fists and attached characters.
...you've heard of the Hellforged Hunting Pack, correct? I suppose that's directed at both Squire and alt-f4.

Fleshmetal should, yeah, at least be 10 points per mini, not a blanket 10 points per unit. Given that a 2+ is the main advantage of Termis over Chosen (along with Invuln), with the downsides of lower WS than Chosen and no Sweeping Advances. To say nothing of the force multiplier of the increased mobility. And much of the time a 4+ Jink cover save will do better than a 5+ Invuln).

It does feel like Chosen get an overly hefty wallop with the formation stick here, though, well, they certainly need something to be worthwhile.

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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-14-15, 09:46 AM Thread Starter
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...you've heard of the Hellforged Hunting Pack, correct? I suppose that's directed at both Squire and alt-f4.

Fleshmetal should, yeah, at least be 10 points per mini, not a blanket 10 points per unit. Given that a 2+ is the main advantage of Termis over Chosen (along with Invuln), with the downsides of lower WS than Chosen and no Sweeping Advances. To say nothing of the force multiplier of the increased mobility. And much of the time a 4+ Jink cover save will do better than a 5+ Invuln).

It does feel like Chosen get an overly hefty wallop with the formation stick here, though, well, they certainly need something to be worthwhile.
No, I never saw this FW Formation before you posted the link.

What do you mean by lower WS ? In my sources, Chosen and Terminators have the same basic statline.

The purpose was, actually, to propose a formation of the Dark Mechanicum with what is provided by the current codex. And the most suitable and characteristic trait I found was "fleshmetal". Maybe bikes, jump packs and/or marks should not be available to Dark Mechanicum adepts (which Chosen are in this formation) ?

The basic principle was indeed to make the Chosen the true elite of Chaos Warbands. It seems weird, due to the fluffy logic of Chaos, where the main rules are "survival of the fittest" and "power play to catch the Gods' attention" that Chosen cannot use equipment available to standard Space Marines. Bikes and jump packs should be available to Chosen, especially for bands whose identity is based upon assault and mobility (pirates, raiders or Night Lords, for instance).

The other part of the concept was to give Chosen access to specific traits, instead of buffing standard CSM or the whole army (even if with the Black Legion supplement and the access to bikes and jump packs, it could apply to the whole army). I have listed the traits that I found relevant and took the Crimson Slaughter cost for "Preferred Enemy". Now, it seems that some traits are definitely not equivalent, and that a specific cost/model should be applied to them.

Basically, I would say :

- Stubborn : 2/model (considering the 25 pts cost of the Icon of Vengeance, giving Fearless, it may be expensive for units of 10 Chosen, but they may add a mark upon it)
- Daemon : 10/model (a Crimson Slaughter relic gives it to a character for 30 pts, but Fearless and Fleet are included into)
- Tank Hunters : 3/model
- Hit & Run : 2/model
- Shrouded : 5/model
- Infiltrators : 5/model
- Rampage : 3/model
- Outflank + Acute Senses : 4/model
- Feel No Pain : 3/model (considering that a Death Company model costs 6 pts more than a standard Blood Angel SM, also gaining Fearless, Rage and Relentless, and that the cost of an Icon of Excess is 3,5 pts/model for a 10 Chosen unit)
- Brotherhood of Psykers : 3/model (considering that a Grey Knights Strike Squad is 100 pts for 5 men, compared to the 90 pts for 5 Chosen, with all Grey Knights specificities included)
- Fleshmetal : 10/model (13 pts of difference between one Chosen and one Terminator, but no Deep Strike and no invul for Fleshmetal vs more mobility)

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Last edited by alt-f4; 12-14-15 at 02:48 PM.
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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-15-15, 12:54 AM
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Ah, misremembered the WS thing, honestly. Poked around in some boxes for a while, but couldn't locate my codex to double-check when posting.

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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-19-15, 05:49 PM Thread Starter
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Default Version 1.0

I have revised the document with all the feedback from here, in order to make it a 1.0 version (available in the first post of the topic).

A few little changes except for a global one : the "Chosen amongst the Chosen" advantage with a cost per model instead of the generic bunch of 10.

I have deeply revised the Sorcerers Coven Formation. I talked about copy/pasting formations from loyal SM sources, but obviously fell in my own trap :D

Apart from "Chosen amongst the Chosen", the 2 rules did not really matched Chaos : the first one had a problem with the Chaos Focus rule (as noticed by @Xabre ), the second allowed Sorcerers to use Psychic Powers from other allied psykers in 12''. The SM rule not only as a limitation (the target Sorcerers cannot use any other Psychic Power due to the channeling) but also indiced something strange regarding Chaos and its rivalities (a Nurgle Sorcerer allowed to use a Tzeentch powern for instance).

So, here are the 2 new versions of those rules :

- Ruinous Rivalry : all marked characters and units from this formation with the Psyker trait generate one additional power from one of their selected lists.

- Warp Affinity : any unit or character of this formation with the Psyker trait standing within 12’’ of any other one may reroll the Perils of the Warp result.

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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-20-15, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by alt-f4 View Post
I


So, here are the 2 new versions of those rules :

- Ruinous Rivalry : all marked characters and units from this formation with the Psyker trait generate one additional power from one of their selected lists.

- Warp Affinity : any unit or character of this formation with the Psyker trait standing within 12’’ of any other one may reroll the Perils of the Warp result.
That's me, causing trouble.

I like the Warp Affinity. Not extra powerful for casting, but some preventive measures are nice. Makes sense.

Ruinous Rivalry still feels a little clunky. This means that the Chose Squads will have 3 powers (level 1, generates 1 power and gains Psychic or Chaos focus, and then gains an extra power), while Chaos Sorcerers will end up with Level + 2 powers (Chaos Focus + Rivalry).

Is that correct?

If so, I'd suggest an simpler wording: All characters and units from this formation generate an additional power chosen from among their allowed disciplines.

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