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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-06-14, 04:36 PM Thread Starter
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Wowee shot down in short order! Lets see then

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Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
Most of my grief with 6th actually stems from the codexs and how poorly built they are internally.
Yeah this is fair enough and we will get to the codecies in time but most of the fixes will either be small army wide changes (we're gonna make marines a few points more expensive across the board), fixing individual units either way or a bit of both.

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Originally Posted by Jonny B View Post
I like the idea of some of these (although not read them all yet) but others aren't great; a bike would be able to spin in any direction, you've seen them in the movies right? And I don't even use bikes so would like my DA mate to suffer this but I don't agree with it.

May I ask, how many armies/races have these been tested on? Would they hurt some more than others?
Mostly small games so far (1000-1500) with only a few armies and not actually using all these rules, mostly the cover, psychic, walker and weapons ones.

That's a fair enough point with the bikes, I just always thought it a bit silly how maneuverable they were for their speed, especially considering they move in squads. If you watch any movies with cavalry movement, they can't exactly just stop and pivot on the spot or else chaos would reign. In the end though it's not that important a change and could easily be left at that

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Originally Posted by humakt View Post
I have not read all the rules, but after going through the first post I think this would basically destroy any army based on assault. If you charged a unit of say 10 marines, maths hammer would say you get 20 shots, of which maybe 12 hit. You reroll those and still get 8 hits. Against the shorter charge range you propose and the general lower armour of most horde armies you will need to get very close to ensure a charge is going to work.
Yeah I didn't think about it that way, a lot of these changes were intended to tone down shooting in favor of melee but I never ran the math on that one. Thought it would be good to have armies suffer an equal amount but I guess the way it work would be that lower BS armies would suffer the most. This one is a doozy I wanna have a solution that penalizes all BS values equally, maybe -2 BS or -1 BS and re roll hits or how about BS2 and then the re rolls with normal BS?? Is this all too much???

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Originally Posted by Mokuren View Post
Most of the problems that come from 6th edition derive from awful codex balance. Tau and Eldar are a whole metric above everyone else and GW assured they're not going to make any other codex on that level, which means they've just been officially crowned kings of 6th edition and there's shit you can do about it. Better shelf your inferior armies and wait for 7th to come around.

Less dramatically, though, I already listed my own gripes about sixth edition and your rules... Don't really address any of them, and just add more rules for the sake of having more rules.

If you want to make sure assault gets a buff, don't make defensive grenades even stronger than they are currently and make sure that difficult terrain is a lot less of a "you lose" button you can hide behind: a daemon prince assaulting fifty billion conscripts hiding behind a single toe-tall pebble gets to roll 3d6 drop highest for its charge distance and attack at Initiative 1 because it doesn't have assault grenades. Yes, Move through cover is completely and utterly useless for all of this. Want to know the fun part? Beasts and bikes are actually not slowed by difficult terrain, even during a charge (so no 3d6 drop highest) but they better have grenades or they're OH NO INITIATIVE 1 too.

Start by fixing that. Then move on to fixing the way Eldar just spam jetbikes and win all objective-grabbing based missions and you can't do anything at all about it. Then we'll talk.
Yeah I guess the normal rules for defensive grenades are pretty ok? How about making assault into cover incur an initiative penalty equal to the cover save (-1 I for light cover etc.)?

Last edited by moshpiler; 03-06-14 at 04:47 PM.
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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-06-14, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
Because since when can a truck turn 180* in an instant? The movies... That's where!
Tongue in cheek kiro the avenger
Possibly not a truck but defo a tank and bike, they can swivel easily!
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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-06-14, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
Tau negate all foot armies.... Heldrakes do too...
Heldrakes negate MEQ armies on foot with little anti-air. Tau negate Green Tide and Footdar and Tactical Horde, like all good armies do.

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Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
Tau also negate any jump pack deep strike... Oh your whole squad just lined up for the PERFECT shot? Ok, take all back off thanks you...
Wow, new books invalidate old strategies. Who knew?

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Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
Eldar just hide behind a wall... Then sprint grab all objectives and laugh as you plink of off their serpents or whatever...
Except when they're dead, because they're fragile as shit.

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Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
You have to sink 200+ points for some armies to not just be tabled by a single flier! an assault army is not gonna get much from an aegis are they?
Most assault armies will gain from an Aegis - everyone likes 4+ cover as you advance, and if you're worried about the difficult terrain slowing you down, then use it to protect your fire support units.

My changes to 6th would be pretty simple. I'd add a single clause to the beginning of the book.

'Warhammer 40,000 is a game. The rules contained within this book, as well as within all Codexes, Supplements, Imperial Armour books and Expansions, are a loose guideline for how you wish to play the game. They are completely open to modification and house-rules - indeed, this is to be encouraged. After all, there is no one set way to have fun.'

That, or because some people seem dead set on treating the rules and Codexes as absolute gospel and running tournaments for a game system that is blatantly obviously designed not to be played competitively:

'This book is invalid. Refer to the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook: 5th Edition in all cases.'
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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-06-14, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
It amazes me how many people complain about Tau and Eldar. They're not *that* good. Strong, sure, but not game-breakingly unbeatable by a long shot. I've fought Eldar five times with Deathwing and/or Drop Wolves, and performed five wins, two of which were tablings. Tau, I've only fought twice but I got a tabling and then a loss on First Blood. Tau and Eldar both have insane issues with fragility that are very easy to take advantage of.
Good.

Now try it with Sisters.
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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-06-14, 05:45 PM
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Good.

Now try it with Sisters.
It's fairly obvious GW doesn't consider Sisters to be a real army any more.
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post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-06-14, 06:32 PM
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In order for say a tank to do a 180* turn it has to stop! reverse one track and turn the other, so it losses all it's momentum, and once it's done crawling round starts up again the 3" off represents this, without crippling the tanks speed for each turn... It also means that they can't camp and pivot without counting as moving...
Same as bikes, they don't just suddenly start moving backwards, they have to stop as they do a movie style turn, then start up again...
And it's not just new books beating new... It means you can't do it, it doesn't counter it, just laughs at you for trying it... And what's your other option? Walk the buggers up and have an extra turn being shot at...
And it's not the aegis line that assault armies can't use, it's the quad gun, sorry, I should've been more specific, your saying I have to stop advancing, take another round of fire in the face in order to take some potshots at a flier which most likely won't kill it? Why should my ENTIRE codex be made redundant by a single unit in a codex, it's not fair. Sure I could just run rhino camping, but then I'm not blood angles am I? I'm spurfs painted red.
Make so that the heldrake is hull mounted... Duh... But that still means he only get 1 turn burning every other turn or more... I can take 1 round of heat and not lose the game for it, every turn is a no no.
Remove the ions overcharge, or make it so you have to super charge to get it, that way the thing can't nuke me without risking himself, or can't nuke me then hop 4D6 away...
Small things can easily fix the game...
And just saying 'fuck it, we can't be arsed, you guys do it' is not a good way to fix it, not everyone is blessed with the groups you may have in order to be able to chop and change the rules as they like... I'm sure adding a sentence in a units entry, or deleting one in an FAQ can't cost them that much... Hell I'll do it if they let me! For free!
And maybe your one army is good at countering eldar, that doesn't make them bad, it's like me saying my all plasma army laughs at a death wing army, it doesn't make it a bad army, it's just me bringing a hard counter... Does that make heldrakes suck? Cos I'm sure my friends paladin army will laugh at a tridrake list...
I think area terrain need some reworking as well, as well as you being able to choose the path your assaulters take, they wouldn't just run blindly towards to foe through a dense forest, they would skirt around it, or try to flank round so they are face-face with the enemy lord perhaps... As well as let pile ins for characters maybe be away from the enemy... My preist won't just sit there and take everyone's fire... He'll move, even if it means forsaking my attacks, fine, I want him out of harms way...

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post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-06-14, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
And it's not just new books beating new... It means you can't do it, it doesn't counter it, just laughs at you for trying it... And what's your other option? Walk the buggers up and have an extra turn being shot at...
Or drop them out of Line of Sight of the Riptide, or in good cover, or bring them on in Stormravens.

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Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
And it's not the aegis line that assault armies can't use, it's the quad gun, sorry, I should've been more specific, your saying I have to stop advancing, take another round of fire in the face in order to take some potshots at a flier which most likely won't kill it?
Why can't an assault army use a Quad-Gun? Your Devastators and such aren't running forwards.

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Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
Why should my ENTIRE codex be made redundant by a single unit in a codex, it's not fair. Sure I could just run rhino camping, but then I'm not blood angles am I? I'm spurfs painted red.
Yeah, man, the entire Codex sucks ass. It's not like you can run an AV13 wall that Outflanks, armed with the kind of firepower that brutalises the basic Tau infantry statline. And that really good Flyer you have, which is really good at killing the Riptide.

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Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
Make so that the heldrake is hull mounted... Duh... But that still means he only get 1 turn burning every other turn or more... I can take 1 round of heat and not lose the game for it, every turn is a no no.
Agreed with this change, but why is a Heldrake shooting every turn? Three, I can understand lasting, but why are you leaving one to run around?

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Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
Remove the ions overcharge, or make it so you have to super charge to get it, that way the thing can't nuke me without risking himself, or can't nuke me then hop 4D6 away...
That sounds pretty good.

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Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
And just saying 'fuck it, we can't be arsed, you guys do it' is not a good way to fix it, not everyone is blessed with the groups you may have in order to be able to chop and change the rules as they like...
Why is it not a good fix? It's what GW means, they just refuse to flatly put it in the rulebook. If it's in the rulebook, then everyone should chop and change the rules, because that's a rule.

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Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
And maybe your one army is good at countering eldar, that doesn't make them bad, it's like me saying my all plasma army laughs at a death wing army, it doesn't make it a bad army, it's just me bringing a hard counter... Does that make heldrakes suck? Cos I'm sure my friends paladin army will laugh at a tridrake list...
In news today; armies building around one factor are bad. Tri-Drake is not appreciable better than running a pair of Heldrakes, and Paladins have a whole host of reasons to be sad fighting Chaos Space Marines (Str8 blast spam and Telepathy are very efficient anti-Paladin, even with their armour saves, and that's without resorting to how people have dealt with Paladins for years - Tank Shock). Tri-Drake, Quad-Tide, Serpent Spam; all of them are kind of bad, because you can't build a list around one unit and one unit alone.

Deathwing are bad because they're stupidly fragile and can't engage many targets at all, not because Plasma and Grav are a thing

Hordes of Marines on foot were never good, and Jumpers as an entire army wasn't exactly the crowning glory of 5th either. Yeah, they were better than they are now. Yes, 6th hit Blood Angels quite hard. But it didn't completely ruin them.
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post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-06-14, 08:15 PM
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The only thing hat really bugs me about 6th is how much it buffed shooting armies, and how much it crippled may diffrent types of assault armies. Random charge lengths, over watch, and the heavy restrictions on multi-charging means that a win for a CC army is more heavily based on blind luck then movement and strategy, after all you don't have to randomly roll weapon ranges so shooting someone is a lot less likely to fail. This trend was just made worse when some of the older weaker shooting armies updated.

The only other thing that seems off about this edition is the over abundance of needless special rules.


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post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-06-14, 08:23 PM
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Maybe I was exaggerating, but really, is it acually fair that there's only 2 real options to dealing with fliers? Your own, or an aegis line?
My local gw narrows it down to... Build you army around killing them, or build your army around hiding from them...
There's no real middle ground, a single guad gun is not very good at bringing down a flier... At least not before it's done siginaifant damage.
Perhaps limiting a fliers range, make it so they can't shoot within a 6" bubble of them? Unless hovering, So they can't shoot directly down onto stuff? Make it easier to hide from them, unless they make them selves vulnerable...
And sure... An Out flanking AV13 wall is good... But it can't deal with riptides very well, an assault cannon will take a while to bring one down... Or a lascannon for that matter...
I'm just saying that simple fixes really Arnt that hard, why have an FAQ set up if you just say we don't give a rats arse about the rules? If they don't care, why even have different editions? They could make money out of a balanced game... Release a codex, see that say the heldrake is OP, FAQ a nerf on it, and buff the spawn perhaps as their lacking, mess it up, spawn are now the new chuck Norris, everyone buys spawn, you've now sold a heldrake and a spawn to every player... Nerf the spawn, buff the chosen, now chosen are uber, everyone buys chosen, nerf said chosen, the codex is now balanced, people buy a bit of everything in the CSM range, and sing your praise for a codex well done. Release next CSM codex, rinse repeat across all lines... That was a simplified process, but the points there, in balancing a codex, you make errors, they could be accidental or deliberate, I don't care as long as they get there in the end, so people shift towards this new 'power unit' and you make sales... Repeat this over and over... I believe this is how LoL makes money on champions...
You have pleased the player base, bring in more people as they don't get their arse wiped every game and so enjoy it...
And the updates could be months apart... Have a monthly FAQ where they 'rebalance' each codex in turn, everyone will get there turn eventually (sorry sisters )
It's not that hard, it's a damn site better than going, piss off, let us bathe in more cash!

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post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-06-14, 08:24 PM
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It's fairly obvious GW doesn't consider Sisters to be a real army any more.
Pity no one told me that when I started.
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