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post #71 of 77 (permalink) Old 12-04-17, 02:49 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Shandathe View Post
Thanks for writing this. It's been a long ride, but you've made things interesting, and set up at least a bit of light in the dark
Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
Brilliant. So so brilliant *tears*. Both are utopian, idealist, transhumanist Legions...so similar yet so different. Blood Angels are lovely, Raven Guard are even more so.

You have somehow managed to consistently outdone yourself. Again, you proved former masterworks are mere preludes of future glory.

Congratulations to you for (semi) conclusion of this magnificent project. This pivotal significance cannot be understated.

Blood Angels can easily fitted in Star Trek, while Raven Guard...well, they are basically an entire organization fleshed out form transhumanist, technocratic sci-fi!

As I have always expected, I have gotten a strong, compelling impression that that Raven Guard are definitely the most powerful, versatile and above all, intelligent Legion. They seem positively overpowered - and to speak candidly, I greatly appreciate it. Strength in knowledge, technology and stratagem. Indeed, Scientia potentia est!

And I cannot help to ask: how could they have suffered major defeats, setbacks and catastrophes, in spite of all those might, knowledge and intelligence they have accomplished?

I wish to present some questions. I hope after re-reading the entire AH I could formulate a bit more comprehensive list of questions.
Thank you! As to the significant setbacks of the Raven Guard - well, no small part of it is the sheer power of the enemies they're up against, same as for the rest of the LDLB Imperium. As to the questions, well, here's some replies at least, but... well, it's a high volume of questions.

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Originally Posted by Lunar View Post

1. Could you elaborate about the Pact of Tau? I would like to know its origin of name, location, power scope, politics, policy, society and religion. You also implied it does have technological advantage over the Imperium.

And how far advanced Raven Guard and Mechanicum compared to the Pact or other major xeno polities(Eldar, Necrons, etc...)?

I also hope to apprehend a little more concrete and comprehensive picture of LDLB equivalent of the Webway War, the Schism of Mars and the Damocles Crusade Would you elucidate and enlighten me about incipiency, progress and ultimate consequences?

Finally, did LDLB Dark Mechanicum have less presence and fewer sympathizerss on Mars compared to canon? Or had they enjoyed same overwhelming advantages on number, technology, firepower and general quality over loyalists, but arrival of 30,000 Raven Guard utterly screwed their relative superiority and doomed rebellion to fail?
So the first thing is that the Pact of Tau is not a unified nation, not even the equivalent of the European Union - it's, well, a pact (the initial version of which was signed on the planet Tau), of military and economic cooperation against the overwhelming threat of the Imperium (and now the Tyranids). Its territory, as such, is not contiguous, but it covers large portions of the galactic rim. The Pact's nations share technology to some extent, but (1) often reluctantly and (2) necessarily slowly, so while their peaks tend to be higher than the Imperium's they're less consistent across the polity and, crucially, often not designed to work together - any Blood Angel that has tried to get Demiurg tech to work with anyone else's tech can tell you all about that.

The Necrons and Eldar both, to steal a quote, have forgotten more than other species have ever learned. Their problem is a combination of absent infrastructure, and the fact that, well, they have forgotten a lot. The technology the Imperium can create is probably comparable to what they can create - but their, so to speak, archaeotech has a major advantage over DAOT archaeotech. The eldar do have a massive advantage in psytech, though, and of the three the 'present capacity' of the necrons is probably the highest, if not unreachably so.

Webway War: Unlike in canon (where there was an active daemonic incursion), it started as an action of, basically, mothballing the Webway to ensure it could not be used against the Imperium, but that the project could be re-begun afterwards. But as soon as they sensed weakness, a whole lot of players tried to break through, because of how decisive it could be - not as a dagger aimed at the heart of Terra, but as a distraction that was nevertheless potentially deadly, particularly in terms of a certain mutated shard. There was fighting, and while most of the monsters the Imperium found were reasonably weak, the strongest few could only be handled by a Primarch or the Emperor.

Schism of Mars: The Dark Mechanicum was less powerful than in canon, but they still held a numerical etc. advantage over the Loyalists. It was indeed the Raven Guard that made the difference.

Damocles Crusade: The first significant Imperial attack on the Pact of Tau (by means of an attack on Tau itself), led by the Emperor's Children and the Imperial Army with some Ultramarines and Thousand Sons support. Severely underestimating the scale and cohesiveness of the alliance led to a significant Imperial defeat, though not a disastrous one. This is the point where the Imperium starts taking the Pact seriously; however, paradoxically, at first that leads to a decrease in the intensity of warfare, the Blood Angels succeeding in scaring the Imperium off for a time (and both parties being forced to focus on the Tyranids). Later Guilliman's perspective that the Pact needs to be stopped before it has grown out of control gains prominence, but everyone knows that the Imperium has worse enemies.

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Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
2. I noticed that RG doctrine is primarily composed of "stealth, covert operations, precision attack at high speed" variant and "massed, overwhelming mechanical assaults" variant, though technological supremacy and ingenuity, out-of-box thinking theme is always presented, as well as putting emphasis on supply and communication disruption. It seems that at least until Siege of Terra and Mars, they typically relied on former, not dissimilar from their canon self, but after the Betrayal and subsequent Siege of Terra, especially counter operations against Salamanders and later Dark Angels, they have become to fully recognize importance of massive firepower, superheavy prowess and static defense in particular circumstances - is it correct?

In addition, do RG specialization indlucde aerowarfare and precision bombardment? Those "titan-grade weaponry" mean super heavy vehicles, artillery, aircraft, and other more exotic, esoteric arsenals?

I have also noted that average number of Raven Guard squad is the smallest of Legions. Is there any reason behind such singular formation makeup? they operating in similar ways to modern fireteam?

And it seems BA specialization includes void, aerial and defense warfare as well as melee assault. Canonically, Ninth Legion are specialized at "high intensity warfare, strategic decapitation strikes, planetary interdiction campaign, multi-vector and sub-orbital attack, and while I'm sure that same could readily be applied on LDLB BA, I wish to ask you if is there anything to add, delete, edit or correct from the list.
RG specialization certainly includes the Mechanicum firepower emphasis, though it's true that was less prominent before the Betrayal - largely because of the specialization difference. In terms of BA warfare, I think a valid point to emphasize is the "high intensity" aspect - while there are significant differences between Companies, in general there's a strong lean towards brief but bloody battles and wars, partially driven by the belief that a brief war (even if destructive) is preferable to a long conflict of attrition.

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Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
3. So if the Nineteenth are practically a part of Mechanicum, ideologically similar and even sharing technology each other, is there any notable technological difference between both organizations? And why Raven Guard do deliberately slow down pace of progress? If they consider they are no longer "human" in precise sense and humanity is indeed subjective, why they concern so much regarding so-called "uncontrolled growth"?

Also, does LDLB Mechanicum still utilize servitors and other unethical abominations? Has it ceased to be an affront to humanity and redeemed to ascend as true transhumanistic science institution? What exactly is modern Mechanicum's ideological foundation laid down by Prince Zinc himself? Are its members still called as tech-"priests"? Personally I would vastly prefer this particular terminology: technocrats.

In addition, are LDLB 'machine spirits' true artificial intelligence? (well, at least some sort of)
No servitors per se, though some amount of vat-grown bio-machinery serves much the same function (albeit with much less relation to anything resembling humanity). However, there's still an undercurrent of spirituality in the Mechanicum, more than in the Imperium at large. They no longer worship the Omnissiah, but there's a tendency to translate scientific awe into religious. In particular, the machine spirits (who, as in canon, do actually exist as AIs) - Mechanicum adepts can be priests to them not in the sense of a Catholic priest, but in the sense of some sort of animist shaman, who ultimately aims to understand and negotiate with the spirits rather than to serve them. A bridge between the community (in this case the Imperium) and the world unknown.

Why are the Raven Guard so careful? They weren't, before the Betrayal. The issue is that 'uncontrolled growth', in 40K, has a tendency to lead to Chaos (if one works on anything even vaguely related to psytech) or insanity in general (otherwise). They've learned this lesson the hard way through cases such as Vaanes', and also by osmosis from the Mechanicum. If one modifies one's mind, one risks modifying one's goals; if one creates minds, one risks creating monsters; if one tinkers too deep without either, one falls prey to human weakness, biases and such, which is bad enough by itself but also has a tendency to lead to Chaos. Of course, that's simply the statement of being careful; how careful they should be is another question entirely, and one there is presently much disagreement on.

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Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
4. Why fifteen exemplars, not eighteen or twenty? Does Sanguinius deem the likes of Lorgar, Dorn and Peturabo being "exemplars" while accusing Konrad "inspiring monsters"?
Nothing so complex - merely that Sanguinius was speaking in the present tense. Fifteen surviving Primarchs at that time.

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Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
5. Why Sanguinius and Angron were estranged after the Betrayal? And how Sanguinius and his Angels regard the Aeldari and its kin? I suspect similar stance to the Thousand Sons, but could not be completely sure.
Sanguinius knew Angron was hiding something, and didn't pry. He fundamentally trusted Angron. You can imagine how, on a purely emotional level, the revelation that Angron had been loyal to the eldar all along, that basically his entire participation in the GC had been an act, would not please Sanguinius, to say the least. At the same time, they were, at the time the Beast happened, on speaking terms, because of a recognition that - in the end - Angron hadn't been a lie. That Angandrir had not been faking the entire time, that their friendship had been genuine, even if some of its premises were false. Since then BA-eldar relations have varied, but generally it's an attitude of recognizing their wisdom and the fact that their motives align in many cases align, but also being well-aware that their motives do not entirely align. Nowadays, with the Imperium waxing and the Pact of Tau and all that, relations are warmer than they have been in a while.

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Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
6. What separate Owls, Hawks, and Pelicans from other Divisions? Are they SPC corps or unique in certain other ways?

Do Raven Guard have Techmarine Order, or every Legionary being a trained Techmarine, like the Dark Angels? What is Warden's mandate? Are cause of Moritati an innate genetic flaw, just same as canon RG?

Finally, "the portion of the dedicated armored and air forces of the Legion that operates multi-Astarte machinery" - is this sentence referring a Legion-wide specialist formation operating titan-grade superweapons, doomsday devices and other strategic assets of the Nineteenth? What is the fotmation's name?

Besides, Raven Guard's command structure seems...well, quite efficient, flexible and technocratic. As always, you caught a Legion's nature and ethos perfectly in its org chart.
I honestly haven't thought about the precise strategic roles the different Divisions play - though they do have roles they tend towards (not an absolute case, true specialization takes place on a lower level of organization). The Moritati are likely a genetic flaw, less in the BA sense or that which they were implied to be in canon and more in the fact that the RG in general can be psychologically fragile in very specific ways. The organizations responsible for tanks, other vehicles, and strategic machinery vary between Divisions.

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Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
7. How proficient are the Nineteenth with the Webway? Do they still research and use it? How many tally victories they have accomplished, both in offense and defense(I suspect second only to the Emperors Children and possibly to Ultramarines - a far cry from the Raven's canonical obscurity). Finally, what are "heavy and irrecoverable losses" suffered the Legion at Parocheus?
Tallies of victories are best left inferred, I think. The Webway is not used on a large scale by the Imperium; a sufficiently large project could make it so, but after the Betrayal other projects took priority, and switching from the Warp to the Webway now... well, it was a key step in the Emperor's plan, but the Primarchs aren't following that plan anymore. It has its advantages, vast ones in terms of safety, but it's less versatile and also currently in use by a hostile species. Parocheus was major losses in Astartes (irrecoverable gene-seed, which the RG did at least detect in this continuity), as well as in machinery - but the raid was intercepted.

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Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
8. So many, if not most, of LDLB xenos are human-compatible in criteria of Blood Angels? If xenos or human polity are resistant, or even outright hostile, to their efforts of diplomacy and inclusion, how they react? Is there any First Contact Protocol and suchlike? According to their IA, Angels sincerely believe that it is possible to reason with monstrous species...so are they attempting to co-opt Dark Eldars, Cythor Fiends, Cryptos, Barghesi, Khrave, Hrud, Lacrymole, Slaugth, Yu'Vath Fra'al and other diverse menagerie of xenos horribilis whose sole raison d'etre is to oppress, prosecute, torture, slaughter, butcher, devour and consume humanity and every other sentient race of the universe?

Hell, in fact, majority of xenos could be classified into xenos horribilis category. Galaxy of Warhammer is grimdark to ludicrous degree that even remotely "reasonable" species is consigned to be a precious minority, and considering everything, it is no surprise that vast majority of Imperial citizen are extreme xenophobes, even without ideological indoctrination, since the human species is constantly menaced and besieged, and those besiegers are monsters in purest sense both in body and in mind. And it is one of few, but crucial, justifications canon Imperium has; it enables and entitles the Imperium to claim its right of continued existence as an necessary evil, despite of everything.

Still, I don't think LDLB BA would be that naive. While goodness is an attribute frequently (unfortunately enough) associated with niceness or stupidity, that is far from the norm, even more so to the Astartes. So above "monstrous" terms limited to appearance, instead of mind or spirit, I suppose?

It brings up another intruiging question: I wonder in LDLB galaxy, proportion of "reasonable", human-compatible xenos is higher than canon milky way. When I read FW rulebooks, complete absence of even a single xenos could be reasoned with was rather preeminent, even Eldar Craftworlds went berserk and torching down innocent human worlds out of sheer spite, though BL novels provide a scant few exceptions, most notably Kinebrach. In LDLB, it seems the Crusade had been encountered plenty of reasonable, highly civilized species and a number of Legions strive to save or spare them.
The question of what percent of the galaxy is xenos horriblis is less than clear, IMO. That said, reasonable species do exist - see the races of the Tau empire, for instance, or a whole lot of species mentioned in one line in some rulebook somewhere. Not always species it's easy to reason with, but species that do not obviously have to be destroyed.

The BA ultimately recognize three categories of species:
1. Impossible to negotiate with. Tyranids, in particular.
2. Impossible to negotiate with in good faith. Orks (who sometimes lean towards the first category) and Daemons, among the major races.
3. Possible to negotiate with in good faith. Of course, any species will have some individuals that are complete monsters, but this refers to a species that is mostly built up of reasonable ones.

Most of the species in LDLB are in Category 3 - in part due to the BA's Dunedaining over the millennia, but I hold it to be true in canon as well. Simply put, 40K is military science fiction. The more aggressive a species is, the more often proportionally it will show up.

Ultimately, the BA will seek to reach an accommodation with anyone in Category 3. Of course, sometimes a species does have to be moved from Category 3 to Category 2, and sometimes a species of Category 3 makes up a the population of a polity whose government is of a lower category.

Now, the Imperium would contend that they're still being naive, and that they have far too loose a definition of reasonable species.

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Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
9. Where Corax is gone? What was his intended destination? Somewhere vicinity to Horus and his ilk, perhaps?

Besides, is the LDLB warp an infinite multiverse in itself? I wonder how cosmology of LDLB verse is structured, and why insurmountable odds are stacked against to this Imperium. Is taint of Chaos encompassing not only the Milky Way, but also other galaxies and universes?
Corax's disappearance was either an accident, or enemy action (the RG suspect it's the former, as embarrassing as that is, because if it was enemy action the enemy responsible has apparently neither taken responsibility nor reappeared since). The result was an explosion that wrecked a fairly large piece of the Ravenspire and killed several Astartes. Given that Corax was working on the problem of causality violation, that is one of the very best of the bad outcomes that was possible. Wherever Corax is, it was probably not his own choices that led him there... then again, what prison can hold a Primarch for ten millennia?

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post #72 of 77 (permalink) Old 12-04-17, 12:37 PM
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Thank you! As to the significant setbacks of the Raven Guard - well, no small part of it is the sheer power of the enemies they're up against, same as for the rest of the LDLB Imperium. As to the questions, well, here's some replies at least, but... well, it's a high volume of questions.
I have always thought canon is severely downplaying fearsome power of major xeno races, and Imperial Guard and Space Marine Chapters are somehow able to hold the line despite everything through sheer number, tenacity and plot devise whilst almost always suffering thousands-to-one loss ratio against Eldars, Necrons and Tau, and everyone else is fighting stupidly. Now I think that is more fair match.

And if there is "tiers" of aggregate power of Legions, where is the Raven Guard located?

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Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
So the first thing is that the Pact of Tau is not a unified nation, not even the equivalent of the European Union - it's, well, a pact (the initial version of which was signed on the planet Tau), of military and economic cooperation against the overwhelming threat of the Imperium (and now the Tyranids). Its territory, as such, is not contiguous, but it covers large portions of the galactic rim. The Pact's nations share technology to some extent, but (1) often reluctantly and (2) necessarily slowly, so while their peaks tend to be higher than the Imperium's they're less consistent across the polity and, crucially, often not designed to work together - any Blood Angel that has tried to get Demiurg tech to work with anyone else's tech can tell you all about that.
So the Pact is really a defensive organization like NATO, nothing more.

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Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
The Necrons and Eldar both, to steal a quote, have forgotten more than other species have ever learned. Their problem is a combination of absent infrastructure, and the fact that, well, they have forgotten a lot. The technology the Imperium can create is probably comparable to what they can create - but their, so to speak, archaeotech has a major advantage over DAOT archaeotech. The eldar do have a massive advantage in psytech, though, and of the three the 'present capacity' of the necrons is probably the highest, if not unreachably so.
So basically Necrons > Eldars > Mechanicum = Raven Guard = Dark Angels = Pact of Tau in average > Emperor's Children = Technologist Chaos Legions > rest of the Imperium and Chaos?

In canon, just same as the Imperium, Eldars have no knowledge nor capacity required to replicate their archaeotech, let alone comprehend. I can see while Eldars are more powerful than canon, their technological base is still demolished, though it seem their psytech is even more impressive than canon; perhaps Thousand Sons psytech is an imitation of Eldar tech?

But why the Necrons have forgotten so many technology? You have mentioned that state, position and overall power of LDLB Necrons are equal to canon, and I have always thought most of their techs are laid dormant, rather than forgotten. Their infrastructure is massive enough to support tech development, and their Crypteks and other technologist still remember much of their archaeotech.

...Though, admittedly canon Necrons are pale shadows compared to their height, possibly even more so than the Eldars, so I doubt LDLB Necrons would be in poorer shape than their canon counterparts.


Quote:
‘I would guess that it has been here for some time. Longer than humanity has prowled the stars. In certain aeldari texts, it speaks of a great war in heaven. Most of it is allegorical nonsense, as could be expected of such a culture, but if you compare it to other xenos records there are… hints. Star-gods and cannibal suns. Warp-spawn and soulless legions that were more monstrous than any Abominable Intelligence. Machines that devoured entire worlds for fuel, and vampiric entities that drained the energy from stars. Cannons that could split reality with a single shot.’ Fabius smiled. ‘A war that laid waste to every galaxy in the universe. A war our existence has yet to recover from. Glorious to think of, isn’t it?’
It also cross-validates that Old One and C'tan are universal entities - or intergalactic entities, at the very least.


I also should have you asked this: you said LDLB Tyranids are same as canon, but it seems as if their milky way incursion is progressing more rapidly, with larger scale. Are their main fleets faster approaching, or more imminent to arrive, than canon?

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Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
Webway War: Unlike in canon (where there was an active daemonic incursion), it started as an action of, basically, mothballing the Webway to ensure it could not be used against the Imperium, but that the project could be re-begun afterwards. But as soon as they sensed weakness, a whole lot of players tried to break through, because of how decisive it could be - not as a dagger aimed at the heart of Terra, but as a distraction that was nevertheless potentially deadly, particularly in terms of a certain mutated shard. There was fighting, and while most of the monsters the Imperium found were reasonably weak, the strongest few could only be handled by a Primarch or the Emperor.
So not only Chaos, but also vast hordes of hostile xenos invaded Webway? And in LDLB, Webway was defended by Custodes and Raven Guard during the Betrayal?

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Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
Schism of Mars: The Dark Mechanicum was less powerful than in canon, but they still held a numerical etc. advantage over the Loyalists. It was indeed the Raven Guard that made the difference.
Why the Dark Mechanicum gained less power than canon? Due to progressive influence of Corax, perhaps?

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Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
Damocles Crusade: The first significant Imperial attack on the Pact of Tau (by means of an attack on Tau itself), led by the Emperor's Children and the Imperial Army with some Ultramarines and Thousand Sons support. Severely underestimating the scale and cohesiveness of the alliance led to a significant Imperial defeat, though not a disastrous one. This is the point where the Imperium starts taking the Pact seriously; however, paradoxically, at first that leads to a decrease in the intensity of warfare, the Blood Angels succeeding in scaring the Imperium off for a time (and both parties being forced to focus on the Tyranids). Later Guilliman's perspective that the Pact needs to be stopped before it has grown out of control gains prominence, but everyone knows that the Imperium has worse enemies.
So the first Imperial expedition on the Pact was repelled by the Blood Angels, and BA managed to scare the Imperium enough to deter further attacks without significant preparation? Do the Imperium and Pact cooperate to fight off menace come from Outer Darkness?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
RG specialization certainly includes the Mechanicum firepower emphasis, though it's true that was less prominent before the Betrayal - largely because of the specialization difference. In terms of BA warfare, I think a valid point to emphasize is the "high intensity" aspect - while there are significant differences between Companies, in general there's a strong lean towards brief but bloody battles and wars, partially driven by the belief that a brief war (even if destructive) is preferable to a long conflict of attrition.
So Raven Guard had already emphasize overwhelming firepower, massed armored assaults and titan-grade weaponry before the Betrayal, and subsequent sieges have only intensified the trend?

And what is reason of small number of personnel of RG squads(like I said, almost reminiscent of modern fireteam)? Alpha Legion squad is four times as larger than RG. Is it a simple tradition? Or does it have a deeper strategic reasoning?

I can see LDLB Blood Angels are not too different from canon, at least in terms of tactical doctrine. Do the RG and BA both emphasize aero- and void- warfare? And how the both Legions conduct siege warfare and static defenses?

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Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
No servitors per se, though some amount of vat-grown bio-machinery serves much the same function (albeit with much less relation to anything resembling humanity). However, there's still an undercurrent of spirituality in the Mechanicum, more than in the Imperium at large. They no longer worship the Omnissiah, but there's a tendency to translate scientific awe into religious. In particular, the machine spirits (who, as in canon, do actually exist as AIs) - Mechanicum adepts can be priests to them not in the sense of a Catholic priest, but in the sense of some sort of animist shaman, who ultimately aims to understand and negotiate with the spirits rather than to serve them. A bridge between the community (in this case the Imperium) and the world unknown.
So only noticeable difference between Mechanicum and Raven Guard in terms of technology and ideology is spirituality? Who are Triumvirs of Raven Guard in 41k? What are the positions they are holding in the Mechanicum? And yes - I see LDLB machine spirits and canon ones are same beings.

As for your 'shaman' metaphor...that is the most appropriate one, I suppose.

Quote:
Magos Vionel, upon taking command of the Ferrous decades before, had installed interfaces with the ship's ancient machine-spirit in all of its data vaults and cogitators. The ship's machine-spirit had long been considered a curmudgeonly, silent entity that cared nothing for human beings and kept itself to itself. While many ancient ships manifested sophisticated machine-spirits, not all of them were willing to communicate, and these were generally left alone. Magos Vionel; however, knew that this approach was folly. Instead of assuming that a machine-spirit should become more human to allow for it to interface with its crew, he took it upon himself to become more like the Ferrous. He transmitted his personality into the information architecture of the factory ship through the interfaces, and forced his human mind into the shape of the machine-spirit's world.

It tasted of rust and the smoky tang of age. It felt warm and creaking, the heat of the factory ship's massive engines and reserves of power caged in the shell of rust.

In the heart of it was the machine-spirit. Vionel's mind was still too human to make of it anything but a murky storm, billowing purple-black clouds of processing power split by the lightning created by rapid calculations. The storm was contained in a great black vault, like some underground cathedral, Vionel's mind making of the physical restraints of the cogitators and data vaults an arching ceiling, supported by thick iron columns dripping with a constant rain of information.

The machine-spirit did not speak to Vionel directly. He had not yet earned that right. He had to interpret the emotions that whipped on information gales, like some fleshly soothsayer interpreting dreams.
BTW, how the Mechanicum members and other augmented humans look like in LDLB? I guess aesthetics of LDLB Imperium would be significantly different to canon Imperium - more baroque, futuristic raygun gothic than brutal gothic cyberpunk; though crystal spires and toga aesthetics would likely be aeldari thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
Why are the Raven Guard so careful? They weren't, before the Betrayal. The issue is that 'uncontrolled growth', in 40K, has a tendency to lead to Chaos (if one works on anything even vaguely related to psytech) or insanity in general (otherwise). They've learned this lesson the hard way through cases such as Vaanes', and also by osmosis from the Mechanicum. If one modifies one's mind, one risks modifying one's goals; if one creates minds, one risks creating monsters; if one tinkers too deep without either, one falls prey to human weakness, biases and such, which is bad enough by itself but also has a tendency to lead to Chaos. Of course, that's simply the statement of being careful; how careful they should be is another question entirely, and one there is presently much disagreement on.
Aye, I almost forgot 40k universe is intrinsically inimical to human technology, civilization and its development.

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Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
Nothing so complex - merely that Sanguinius was speaking in the present tense. Fifteen surviving Primarchs at that time.
So Sanguinius thinks even Chaos Primarchs are exemplars in their own ways? Most of them were monsters even before their fall, just same as canon. Maybe Sanguinius considers them as monster kings breeding and inspiring lesser monsters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
Sanguinius knew Angron was hiding something, and didn't pry. He fundamentally trusted Angron. You can imagine how, on a purely emotional level, the revelation that Angron had been loyal to the eldar all along, that basically his entire participation in the GC had been an act, would not please Sanguinius, to say the least. At the same time, they were, at the time the Beast happened, on speaking terms, because of a recognition that - in the end - Angron hadn't been a lie. That Angandrir had not been faking the entire time, that their friendship had been genuine, even if some of its premises were false. Since then BA-eldar relations have varied, but generally it's an attitude of recognizing their wisdom and the fact that their motives align in many cases align, but also being well-aware that their motives do not entirely align. Nowadays, with the Imperium waxing and the Pact of Tau and all that, relations are warmer than they have been in a while.
So Sanguinius is still believing in fundamental righteousness of the GC? Imperium Aeldari Secundus and the Pact of Tau can become a fast alliance in the near future?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
I honestly haven't thought about the precise strategic roles the different Divisions play - though they do have roles they tend towards (not an absolute case, true specialization takes place on a lower level of organization). The Moritati are likely a genetic flaw, less in the BA sense or that which they were implied to be in canon and more in the fact that the RG in general can be psychologically fragile in very specific ways. The organizations responsible for tanks, other vehicles, and strategic machinery vary between Divisions.
1) So the Raven Guard have no Techmarines(since they are all Techmarines), Librarians(despite of their psychic nature and training, they are simply treated as normal Astartes), and Apothecary(Mechanicum is their Apothecarium)?

2) Psychologically fragile as, to say, Vaanes?

3) So each Raven Guard formation below Divisions has their own specializations?

4) What are roles of Wardens? Moritati and Shadowmasters are easy to imagine, but Wardens are less so.

5) So each Divisions maintain multiple, idiosyncratic organizations to manufacture, maintain and deploy their mechanical assets, and their names and specialties are all different?

6) Could you provide some specific examples of those "strategic machinery"? I have conceived Supreme Commander experimental units, C&C epic units and superweapons, and suchlike.

7) Do the Raven Guard utilize massed robots and automata? I imagine they will less rely on Imperial Army, and call Mechanicum Taghmata, Ordo Reductor, Titan Legions and Legio Cybernetica when necessary.

8) Do the Raven Guard use non-Chaotic scrapecode and logic virus?

9) What exactly are the Oracle of Elphinster and other casualty-violation artifact in possession of Raven Guard?

10) Is there any difference between RG and Mechanicum technology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
Tallies of victories are best left inferred, I think. The Webway is not used on a large scale by the Imperium; a sufficiently large project could make it so, but after the Betrayal other projects took priority, and switching from the Warp to the Webway now... well, it was a key step in the Emperor's plan, but the Primarchs aren't following that plan anymore. It has its advantages, vast ones in terms of safety, but it's less versatile and also currently in use by a hostile species. Parocheus was major losses in Astartes (irrecoverable gene-seed, which the RG did at least detect in this continuity), as well as in machinery - but the raid was intercepted.
Agree. It would be the best to give some margin for imagination.

So the Webway is used in small scale by the Imperium? And does 'a hostile species' mean Eldars? What major machinery destroyed before the raid was intercepted?

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The question of what percent of the galaxy is xenos horriblis is less than clear, IMO. That said, reasonable species do exist - see the races of the Tau empire, for instance, or a whole lot of species mentioned in one line in some rulebook somewhere. Not always species it's easy to reason with, but species that do not obviously have to be destroyed.

The BA ultimately recognize three categories of species:
1. Impossible to negotiate with. Tyranids, in particular.
2. Impossible to negotiate with in good faith. Orks (who sometimes lean towards the first category) and Daemons, among the major races.
3. Possible to negotiate with in good faith. Of course, any species will have some individuals that are complete monsters, but this refers to a species that is mostly built up of reasonable ones.

Most of the species in LDLB are in Category 3 - in part due to the BA's Dunedaining over the millennia, but I hold it to be true in canon as well. Simply put, 40K is military science fiction. The more aggressive a species is, the more often proportionally it will show up.

Ultimately, the BA will seek to reach an accommodation with anyone in Category 3. Of course, sometimes a species does have to be moved from Category 3 to Category 2, and sometimes a species of Category 3 makes up a the population of a polity whose government is of a lower category.

Now, the Imperium would contend that they're still being naive, and that they have far too loose a definition of reasonable species.
"Dunedaining"...an interesting terminology, and oddly pertinent, too. I will remember.

I see. The Blood Angels have asensible policy and can discern friends and foes. Again, it reminds policy of Federation of Planets. Does the Imperium use similar categorization, especially more 'moderate' Legions?

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Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
Corax's disappearance was either an accident, or enemy action (the RG suspect it's the former, as embarrassing as that is, because if it was enemy action the enemy responsible has apparently neither taken responsibility nor reappeared since). The result was an explosion that wrecked a fairly large piece of the Ravenspire and killed several Astartes. Given that Corax was working on the problem of causality violation, that is one of the very best of the bad outcomes that was possible. Wherever Corax is, it was probably not his own choices that led him there... then again, what prison can hold a Primarch for ten millennia?
1) Warp "gods" 2) Necrons and C'tan 3) Alternate universes and/or dimensions. 4) Time continuum 5) Friendship is magic.

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Some more answers.

* Humanity as the only race to augment themselves - no, though the Mechanicum and RG do so to a greater extent than most xeno species.

* Blood Angels augmentations comparable to Final Shore - no; there's some augmentations, but nothing as extreme or pervasive.

* RG versus Mechanicum depends on whether or not you include the basic Astartes implants as augmentation or not. Counting them, RG augment themselves more, but the Astarte baseline is one that renders a lot of the physical augmentations counterproductive. Compared to the Chaos technologist Legions... a lot more variety among the Chaos technologists, in the sense that among them often it's only a limited number who augment their bodies in non-mutation ways more complex than a bionic arm, whereas with the RG it's most.

* A number of pre-Betrayal Astartes remain, though none of the major commanders have survived. In terms of death - well, Astartes are pretty close to ageless already, the problem is that being ageless doesn't help with being killed in violent ways, and Astartes are warriors.

* Other transhumanist Legions - not on a Legionwide scale.
* So the likes of Eldars occasionally augment themselves?

* I see. The Final Shore are probably the only Legion whose degree augmentation is comparable with the RG, after all.

* How much LDLB augmentation differs from canon augmentation, both in Mechanicum and civilians? And I have thought the Dark Angels and Iron Legions are quite extensively augmenting themselves with Warp-derived technology? Is it a part of Chaotic mutations?

* No, what I mean is true immortality - mind uploading, body switching, technological revivification, immutable reiterations, clones and forks possessing intact memory, personality and capabilities, etc. I also wonder whether there is a RG legionary who has constantly upgraded himself and eventually managed to attain a Primarch level hyperintelligence and begun to unlock mysteries of archaeotech...

* But is it possible that individual Legionary nourishes transhumanist idea?


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Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
Is the canon BA gene-seed really that unstable, aside from the Flaw? Given the number of successors they have in canon, despite the Flaw being known, I'd argue for them being the among the most stable behind the Ultramarines (on par with the Dark Angels and Imperial Fists). That's what I've gone for in LDLB, anyway.

And that summation seems about right.
I will not claim BA's gene seed is prone to mutation - it is definitely easy to cultivate. But I used term 'unstable' for an entirely different reason; namely, bonding ability.

According to FW book Extermination,

Quote:
Almost certainly it was not a question of gene adaptation; the extant sample records place the gene-seed implantation success rate for the XXth pattern as being in the highest end of the recorded spectrum. The evidence would indicate it was certainly far superior to certain other developed typos (the difficulties experienced by the VIth and IXth genetic patterns being documented elsewhere).
And according to Tempest,

Quote:
The second was a latterly revealed aspect of their gene-seed. While the rates of gene-seed implantation success for the XIII'h Legion's zygote type were very close to the median level, it had proved to be in the highest resistance band during extensive replication -a meridian matched only by the Ith Legion's own core sample.
Also,

Quote:
Documentary evidence attests that the IVth Legion gene-seed showed an above-average adaptability and rates of implant rejection were notably low, particularly in comparison with difficulties in large-scale implantation encountered with other Progenoid types, which would not be eliminated until the acquisition of the gene-labs of Luna. This advantage meant that the IVth Legion's fighting strength was built rapidly, expanding to several fully battle-ready battalions in size while some of the other nascent Legions were still yet unable to field more than an active century. This in turn meant that the IVth Legion was very swiftly put to active-service alongside the Ist and Vth.
Iron Warriors and White Scars gene seeds are not among the purest, but it seems their implantation success rate is among the highest, even without Primarchs' own samples. And after discovery of Peturabo and integration with Mechanicum infrastructure...the Fourth Legion literally churned out Astartes and grown gigantic whilst regularly taking heinous casualties thanks to space Stalin's abject callousness and stupidity.

Finally, in Retribution, it is explicitly stated;

Quote:
The aggressive over-writing of the aspirant's gene-helix by the blood of their Primarch was capable of transfiguring the rad-scarred and twisted inhabitants of Baal to create 'perfected' warriors, living icons of the physical ideal of the Legiones Astartes, each one an echo of their Primarch, called 'the Angel', Sanguinius in his fearsome glory. There was a price however for this power, and the process of transformation was a more arcane, elaborate and painful one than that endured by any other Legion. Even with the direct infusion of its Primarch's own blood to stabilise the process, the rate of fatalities among aspirants was frighteningly high.
So I would argue gene seed stability does not necessarily correspond with implantation success rate.

Of course, it is entirely possible that the BA's gene seed is both stable and easy to implant in this universe, as you already said.


Quote:
Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
Not all of them are reiterated, but I've tried to mention Astarte v. Astarte battles in both IAs, and the RG (being the last) had a build-up of those.
Sorry - what I intended to mean is, all of Astarte v. Astarte battles have been presented before; and that is reason why I asked about Astarte v. Xeno battles described in the RG's IA.

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Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
Tuchulcha escaped during the Betrayal, as mentioned, and has rarely been seen since. The RG flagship, the Zinc Oath, is a fairly large and extremely powerful ship - arguable if it reaches mobile moon status, but it does deviate somewhat from normal RG doctrine of destroyer-scale ships. Despite its stealth capacities, in an actual battle it does stand out.
I see. So the paths of RG and Tuchulcha have not intersected as frequently as I thought. And well...I imagine the Zinc Oath would be a Gloriana-equivalent ship brimming with DAOT level technology.

And how about the state of the Shadow of the Emperor? What are names of flagships of other Legions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
Ideological: To the AL, war is inevitable, though their definition of war is somewhat broader than the normal one. It is not about honor, but it is about PR among other things, which often overlaps. To the NL war is unfortunate, and a symptom of a chaotic galaxy. It is, nevertheless, necessary, to protect the Imperium. It is not about honor, but it is about both reputation and protecting the Imperium's people - by any means necessary. To the RG war is merely one of the means of changing the galaxy, with a gradation between it and lesser forms of violence. It is not about honor, but it is nonetheless absolutely crucial to be very cautious about making sacrifices in it, because of how vast the scale of those sacrifices really is.
I can easily imagine NL's fearsome reputation is inseparably linked with war. But I cannot see how PR is related with war. Would you mind if I ask you to elaborate relationship between war and AL?

And yes - it is obvious as noun that the RG are big thinkers - they are seeing, thinking and planning in astronomical terms and scope, preserving and exploiting the most miniscule advantages, looking forward to the Deep Time...I can see the UM and RL share a lot of common ground in their ideology, if not doctrine.

Lastly, what are the 'lesser forms of violence' applied by the Raven Guard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
Doctrinal: The Alpha Legion lean most towards 'war by other means', including diplomacy, espionage, economic warfare, et cetera. They're also the ones most likely to operate completely in secret, and make the most use of local allies. The Night Lords by contrast operate the most in the open - they keep important details classified, of course, but their method of information warfare is to make sure the enemy knows they're doomed. They're closest to a conventional Legion; a sword rather than a scalpel, but a sword very precisely controlled. The Raven Guard tend to take an intermediate ground in terms of secrecy - the enemy will generally know that the RG are on a planet, but have no idea what they're actually doing. Nonetheless, unlike the AL, usually their purpose is a clear martial one. Of course there are overlaps between the Legions in practice.
Thank you very much for exhaustive elucidation. But if the enemy have no idea of what RG are doing, how could they be aware of RG's presence? The enemy could easily ascribe their plight to other Imperial or xeno agents. In canon, enemies of RG tend to have an inkling of what the RG are doing...of course, coping with such covert operations would be a completely different matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
They would certainly say so - the thing is, 'overall performance' is somewhat hard to measure, since the Legions do have different specialties. That said, they do emphasize quality over quantity in a number of ways, which is part of the reason for the smaller Legion size.
Indeed. Performance is subjective; but I think strength, endurance and intelligence would be measurable. And since when the Raven Guard began to emphasize quality over quantity? I'm curious to know the crux.

BTW, what is the RG's specialties? Canon RG melded with canon Iron Hands and Dark Angels, I presume?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
Yes and yes.
Well, let's guess...do the RG recruit from Forge Worlds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
It's not an official position of any Legion, but yes, some RG do look down on the EC for this, especially given that the Legions share a lot otherwise.
That is interesting. I think there would be some friction between 'psychologically conditioned(LG, DG, NL, AL, etc.)' and 'non-conditoned(EC, LW, etc.)' Legions for that matter.

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Originally Posted by VulkansNodosaurus View Post
No, it wouldn't - not in the 40K era at least. I suspect the typical one is simply 'Space Marines'. For a more poetic one, perhaps 'Starcalled'.
Wow. That is exquisitely poetic. I really appreciate your term.

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Some more answers.

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Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
10. Are humanity the only race in the galaxy utilizing technology to enhance, improve and augment themselves, both physically and intellectually? Also, do Blood Angels seek to augment themselves in comparable way to Final Shore?

And how far Raven Guard augment themselves compared to Mechanicum adepts and technologist traitor Legions?

Furthermore, how many pre-Betrayal RG have remained? Has any of the Nineteenth vanquished death and archived technological immortality and/or singularity?

Finally, is there any Legion besides Raven Guard using technology to enhance and augment their own mind, intelligence and cognitive abilities?
* Humanity as the only race to augment themselves - no, though the Mechanicum and RG do so to a greater extent than most xeno species.

* Blood Angels augmentations comparable to Final Shore - no; there's some augmentations, but nothing as extreme or pervasive.

* RG versus Mechanicum depends on whether or not you include the basic Astartes implants as augmentation or not. Counting them, RG augment themselves more, but the Astarte baseline is one that renders a lot of the physical augmentations counterproductive. Compared to the Chaos technologist Legions... a lot more variety among the Chaos technologists, in the sense that among them often it's only a limited number who augment their bodies in non-mutation ways more complex than a bionic arm, whereas with the RG it's most.

* A number of pre-Betrayal Astartes remain, though none of the major commanders have survived. In terms of death - well, Astartes are pretty close to ageless already, the problem is that being ageless doesn't help with being killed in violent ways, and Astartes are warriors.

* Other transhumanist Legions - not on a Legionwide scale.

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Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
11. Crusade era RG number - 130k - is much higher than canon - 83k -. What is the causes? Is it due to Raven Guard having far more extensive infrastructure and recruitment base while taking less casualties than the canon counterpart? Or are there other, more esoteric reasons? And how nomadic, fleet-based Blood Angels, whose gene seed is canonically among the most unstable, second only to Thousand Sons, have expanded their ranks more than twice while Raven Guard are stagnated in 135k despite of their vast technological foundation and infrastructure?

In addition, could it be epitomized that Night Lords have the most corrupted gene seed amongst Imperial Legions, while the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons' are the most deviant(also languished in the lowest spectrum of bonding success rate among loyalist Legions), and the Raven Guard's are the most unstable?
Crusade-era RG is due to the reasons you mentioned - infrastructure and lower casualties.

Is the canon BA gene-seed really that unstable, aside from the Flaw? Given the number of successors they have in canon, despite the Flaw being known, I'd argue for them being the among the most stable behind the Ultramarines (on par with the Dark Angels and Imperial Fists). That's what I've gone for in LDLB, anyway.

And that summation seems about right.

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Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
12. I found that RG 'exemplary battles' section of the Long War section are all reiterated from previous IAs. Is it intentional, to provide references and highlight each significant battle? And what is difference between canon Parocheus and Barans wars and LDLB equivalents?
Not all of them are reiterated, but I've tried to mention Astarte v. Astarte battles in both IAs, and the RG (being the last) had a build-up of those.

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Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
13. What is name of the Raven Guard flagship, a part of the Triumvirate? Is it a veritable mobile moon and/or space station rivaling grandeur of Phalanx and Pride of the Emperor? Or is it more akin to compact but extremely potent relic of Golden Age of Technology like Dark Sovereign or Mirabilis? Finally, what was the Tuchulcha's ultimate fate? Captured? Destroyed? Managed to escape yet agian?
Tuchulcha escaped during the Betrayal, as mentioned, and has rarely been seen since. The RG flagship, the Zinc Oath, is a fairly large and extremely powerful ship - arguable if it reaches mobile moon status, but it does deviate somewhat from normal RG doctrine of destroyer-scale ships. Despite its stealth capacities, in an actual battle it does stand out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
14. What is principal doctrinal and ideological difference between Raven Guard, Alpha Legion and Night Lords regarding war and other military affairs?

I also imagine LDLB RG, AL and NL would practice information and electronic warfare with utmost efficiency(or electronic warfare is a plenipotentiary of RG, other two Legions are inclined to disrupt of command communication via sabotage and misinformation rather than technology); do they, or any other Legiones Astartes, utilize nanite and memetics in war?
Ideological: To the AL, war is inevitable, though their definition of war is somewhat broader than the normal one. It is not about honor, but it is about PR among other things, which often overlaps. To the NL war is unfortunate, and a symptom of a chaotic galaxy. It is, nevertheless, necessary, to protect the Imperium. It is not about honor, but it is about both reputation and protecting the Imperium's people - by any means necessary. To the RG war is merely one of the means of changing the galaxy, with a gradation between it and lesser forms of violence. It is not about honor, but it is nonetheless absolutely crucial to be very cautious about making sacrifices in it, because of how vast the scale of those sacrifices really is.

Doctrinal: The Alpha Legion lean most towards 'war by other means', including diplomacy, espionage, economic warfare, et cetera. They're also the ones most likely to operate completely in secret, and make the most use of local allies. The Night Lords by contrast operate the most in the open - they keep important details classified, of course, but their method of information warfare is to make sure the enemy knows they're doomed. They're closest to a conventional Legion; a sword rather than a scalpel, but a sword very precisely controlled. The Raven Guard tend to take an intermediate ground in terms of secrecy - the enemy will generally know that the RG are on a planet, but have no idea what they're actually doing. Nonetheless, unlike the AL, usually their purpose is a clear martial one. Of course there are overlaps between the Legions in practice.

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15. Where are Blood Angels recruiting? From the Pact of Tau and other independent polities, I conjecture? Do Raven Guard have Legion domains and recruitment grounds other than the Kiavahr-Lycaeus system?
Yes and yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
16. Do Raven Guard physiology, psychology and mentality deviate significantly from other "unaugmented" Astartes? Are their average strength, endurance, intelligence and overall performance measurably better than normal Astartes?
They would certainly say so - the thing is, 'overall performance' is somewhat hard to measure, since the Legions do have different specialties. That said, they do emphasize quality over quantity in a number of ways, which is part of the reason for the smaller Legion size.

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17. According to Emperor's Children IA, "some say that we limit post-induction hypno-conditioning and neural implants because of cowardice." Those 'some' indicates Raven Guard, perhaps?
It's not an official position of any Legion, but yes, some RG do look down on the EC for this, especially given that the Legions share a lot otherwise.

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18. In secular, rationalist Imperium of LDLB, what is sobriquet of the Legiones Astartes? With both Angels turn traitor, I think 'Angels of Death' would never be their epithet.
No, it wouldn't - not in the 40K era at least. I suspect the typical one is simply 'Space Marines'. For a more poetic one, perhaps 'Starcalled'.

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Which Legions are good at inspiring and motivating humans, and which Legions are not? Which Legions have good PR, and which Legions have not? Which Legions have many allies in the Imperium, and which Legions have relatively few?

And how large and comprehensive the Pact compared to canon Tau?

Do LDLB Tyranids use genestealers? They could easily be rooted out through careful population monitoring and regular genetic test, and it seems unlilkely that LDLB Imperium would neglect such vital governmental functions.

Does LDLB cosmology same as canon? Is LDLB Chaos turly multiversal as some canon sources implying?

And what is difference between liberty of Luna Wolves, anti-tyranny of Death Guard and freedom of Raven Guard?

What is difference between mathematics of DG, TS, RG and other Legions?

How large is the Beta? Had the Alpha rebuilt? What is the Luna Wolves flagship after departure of Horus?

How motivation and evolvement of Parocheus and Barans differ from canon?

Do GK Brotherhood have any specialization? Why their Hive Mind impairs strategic genius? If anything, it should increase and cultivate such geniuses...

If Fulgrim survived but Emperor incapacitated, would Fulgrim be inaugurated as the Regent while Corax displace Fabricator Kane?

Is Horus the first Steward of Lunar? Does Lunar a hub of Imperial politics, considering overall mandate of LW? Are Selenar gene-cults and tech enclaves of Lunar alive and incorporated into infrastructure of LW? And why the LW choose to stay with the Imperium while BA seceded from it? I think ideals of LW are even more incompatible with policy and ideology of the Imperium than BA's.

And I wonder sliding scale of idealism of the Imperial Legions could be classified like below:

'Idealist' Legions: EC, TS, LW, RG

'Realist' Legions: SW, UM, DG, GK

'Cynic' Legions: NL, AL (note: even 'cynic' Legions are infinitely more idealistic than the most idealistic canon Imperials)

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19. Could you elaborate government structure and system of LDLB Imperium? With continuation of Great Crusade and reforms and overhauling implemented by Malcador and various Primarchs, I very much doubt Administratum and other mind-numbingly byzantine, excessively complicated and utterly inefficient bureaucratic monstrosity would even exist.

20. Does "current(i.e. 40k)" Imperium make extensive use of Corax's experimental Gellar Field?

21. Among the 'numerous victories' the Raven Guard had won after disaster of Medusa, which are the most notable ones?

22. Was Kiavahr Ascendancy Cult a Tzeentchian scheme? How the Cult managed to grow so powerful to storm the Ravenspire? How many Raven Guard garrisoned Kiavahr, and how many of them had fallen and corrupted?

23. Do Raven Guard deign to even use weapons as primitive as bolters? I wouldn't be surprised if standard armament of every Nineteenth legionary is volkite, graviton and quantum weaponry.

24. Why the Guilliman disliked feared Corax and in turn, Corax deemed Gulliman and Magus as potential tyrants? Had Corax reconciled with Horus, Gulliman and Magnus after the Betrayal?

25. What is difference between Raven Guard simulations and Ultramarines simulations? Do other Legions also run tactical/strategic simulations?

26. Hadn't sabotage on Jaghatai's prized armor conducted after arrival of Death Guard and Space Wolves, instead of during the first Siege of Terrra?

27. "On Mars, even as Captain Verano Ebb killed the traitorous Fabricator-General at the cost of his own life, Dark Mechanicum elements used the opportunity to flee the planet and join the traitor fleet, bolstering Lorgar's forces; Mars was secured, but the loyalists on it were stranded." How could Dark Mechanicum have succeed to run, despite of arrival of Death Guard, sally of Terran fleet and shattering of traitor blockade of Terra? At the same token, why loyalists on Mars had failed to extricate to Terra in spite of of loyalist supremacy of space adamantly maintained until arrival of traitor reinforcements. And even as the second half of traitor did pour into Sol system, there should have been enough time to withdraw before the Second Fleet making its way to Mars. And how many traitor Astartes landed on Mars? Had Second Fleet made any attempt to reclaim Mars, or retrieve isolated pockets traitors at the very least?
19. With Alpharius at the head, you have a much more efficient and predictable system than canon... but at the same time, with Alpharius at the head, you still have something mind-bogglingly complicated and half-classified. Then you have variable pressures - the Luna Wolves pushing for greater local autonomy, for instance.

In general, I imagine that the Administratum still exists, but in a much more distributed fashion than canon rather than being concentrated on Terra. Meanwhile, you also have the Web of Loyalty doing a similar function as a secret police and deep state, with Investigators (sometimes dubbed Inquisitors by those with reason to fear them) at its main nodes.

The great martial elements of the Imperium have different places. The ten Legions answer directly to Alpharius, and sometimes Alpharius answers to them. The Imperial Army is, while still a frontline fighting force, less of a sole power in its own right than the Guard in canon, more bound by local civilian authority, especially in regions distant from the frontier. The Assassins and Sisters of Void - the two 'Dark Orders' - are tightly controlled by Terra, not just by Alpharius (who after all has finite time) but the elites thereof. The Adeptus Mechanicus, while no longer independent, is still semi-independent, and tightly wound together with the Raven Guard.

In general, the Imperium is somewhat federal because of the necessities of Warp Travel. But it's fair to say it's less so than canon. Of course, that also makes it more of a military dictatorship - while in many ways it's more liberal than the canon Imperium, and in the vast majority of cases a nicer place to live, there are exceptions.

20. Yes (well, it's no longer exactly experimental, but.). The technological stagnation is still present in LDLB, but it's not a standstill.

21. During the Escape? You're right that I should include some battle descriptions in v2. Probably alt-Yarant in particular.

(In general, what I aimed to show with the IA were the Raven Guard as a powerful force even among the Legions, but sometimes less than reliable. In particular, since the time of the Betrayal, more of the Raven Guard than any other Legion have turned against the Imperium. What came out instead was a bit too much of a litany of defeats and bare victories, while giving reasons for the RG to be seemingly unbeatable - that's something I'll have to fix in v2.)

22. Not Tzeentchi - Chaos Undivided, in practice with some imbalance towards Tzeentch. As to how many RG were corrupted - a minority of the garrison, but a substantial one.

23. That's a valid point. To be fair, I don't think anyone in the LDLB Imperium uses the same models of bolters they did ten millennia ago - but it makes sense for the RG to have a bias towards more advanced weaponry.

24. They indeed calmed things since the Betrayal - all the loyalist Primarchs did, with the exception of Curze and Horus. The Guilliman-Corax split... I'll cite what I wrote on SB: there was also a personality conflict that's a pretty clear analogue of canon!Guilliman and canon!Alpharius. The last Primarch to be found, with a whole lot to prove, unorthodox tactics, keeping his own counsel.... With Magnus, it was Corax's distrust of psychic powers above all.

25. They all run simulations of some form, but the UM and RG IAs specifically use the term to refer to different things. For the UM a simulation is fundamentally a training exercise against non-real enemies. For the RG it's literally an attempt to predict what is most likely to happen, what details don't match up, etc. - mechanical precog. Of course, the Raven Guard run plenty of training exercises as well, and the Ultramarines have their own computer simulations for their foes, but to a less defining extent.

26. Yes - and I don't believe the Raven Guard IA contradicts that? I guess it could be clearer.

27. This was after the Second Fleet arrived and had, at that point, secured orbital supremacy via Chaos. And the Loyalists could have evacuated earlier, but didn't because they didn't want to give up on Mars.

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Thank you very much for extensive, thoroughgoing answers.

19. Wow. Just Wow. So much details. So much thoughts.

How ironic, Chaos worshipers and corrupted mundanes calling investigators "inquisitors".

Canon Mechanicus is also semi-independent. So degree of Mechanicus autonomy is greater than canon? Regardless, any sovereignty would be pretty much meaningless since Mechanicum is deeply tied with Raven Guard and one of Triumvirs ruling Mars.

May I ask you to provide an example of exceptions? That sounds very interesting. And what had other Primarchs contributed when they walked (and still walk) among mankind? What were their vocations in the Imperium?

20. Yes. Imperium is marching on.

21. That is really unexpected. I have thought the Night Lords, the Luna Wolves and the Thousand Sons are the Legions most prone to fall. In the same vein, I would like to suggest to improve the Night Lords and Death Guards fare slightly...and add one or two the GC victories other than 'rampaging and massacring helpless innocent mortals until they surrender or exterminated'. While I vehemently hate and despise canon NL and DG, they are different beasts from their canon selves, after all. And it think adding one or two Long War victories to loyalist Legions in general will make their IAs more fulfilling.

22. I see. Fallen Ravens furtively sabotaged Ravenspire from inside.

23. My imagination is, LDLB Astartes will use volkite weaponry as their signature weapons instead of bolters. Volkites are much more powerful and versatile than bolters, and the reason of their decline is not obsoleteness or any inherent defect, but technology and logistical difficulty, since most Forge Worlds were incapable of mass producing volkites. In other words, cost-effectiveness and availability is a god of logistics. The same principle applies on Adrathic weapons of Custodes.

And we know volkites were lasgun equivalents during the Golden Age of Technology. So it makes sense LDLB Astartes use volkites standard armaments, while Imperial Army use human-sized bolters, coilguns and plasma weapons.

24. And Corax deemed Gulliman and Magnus as potential tyrants due to both Primarch's orderly, lawful nature?

25. So every Imperial(and Chaos?) Legions use simulations for various purpose, but the Ultramarines and Raven Guard use them most frequently and efficiently, keeping unique forms and purposes in mind.

27. I see. So the fighting was still raging after arrival of the Second Fleet, and neither Raven Guard nor First Fleet contingents extricated from Mars. It makes sense - if Loyalists loss Mars, in short term traitor get significant reinforcement, and in long term technology of Imperium will suffer grave, possibly irrecoverable damage as canon.

Have you started to post on SB? I haven't visited SB for some time, but I'm going to check - is it different from AH version?

Last edited by Lunar; 02-20-18 at 10:17 AM.
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post #77 of 77 (permalink) Old 08-30-18, 03:22 PM Thread Starter
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Lunar - I do apologize about this, but ultimately I'm going to have to admit that I'll never get around to answering all your questions. I will come back to LDLB at some point, to write 'Legion concepts' a la the Roboutian Heresy to flesh out the various Legions' internal diversity - but it's not, and will not again be, my primary focus. And I'm in particular much less active here, as compared to AH and Spacebattles, so... yeah. Again, sorry.


For everyone's reference, the edited version of this project on Spacebattles (same as the AH version):


https://forums.spacebattles.com/thre...heresy.612404/

Renegades Saga contributions
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...tions-cry.html)
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...s-scarlet.html)
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...lesh-weak.html)
The Emperor has turned to Chaos. The dream of the Imperium has become a nightmare. But Horus and his Coalition stand against the dark, here at the end of time.

Lorgar's Betrayal
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...te-heresy.html)
What was broken has been mended. And what was burned away can never be reforged.

Last edited by VulkansNodosaurus; 08-30-18 at 03:28 PM.
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