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post #41 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-14-17, 10:13 PM Thread Starter
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Wow, even your answer is perfect. Elaborated, well thought out... you almost completely solved the Eldar question.

However, answers always beget questions...and many questions are left to be unanswered.

For the eternal glory of Chaos, I fully intend to bestow you eight blessings of Eightfold Path.


Firstly, if Imperium knows route to Commorragh and devastated it several times over, why they have already not razed it to the ground? Dark Ones are more powerful in this universe than its canon self?

And other hostile races such as Orks, Tyranids and Necrons are also more powerful and numerous than canon? Besides, it seems Necron Dynasties awakened far too early than canon...is it correct? By the way, I wonder whether Beast arose in this universe or not. Since, well, even if Beast arose, LDLB Imperium could dispatch it with ease at any time if it desires so...furthermore, in M32 Imperium was free from dire threats such as Tyranids and Necrons. I suspect it would be a much smaller fish in this universe, assuming it indeed arose.


Wait...I think Imperium had actually chance to eradicate Eldar once and for all. Namely, M31 to M33. Chaos and Xenos are mauled and contained. No newer threats arise...right? Or Necrons were already looming in the background? Even after inclusion of the Final Shore Eldar are still weak...why the Imperium had not used this golden opportunity?

And have you any idea about Rangdan Xenocides? Or "More recently, the Luna Wolves defeated a titanic invasion of various xeno species" paragraph is a hint that Rangdan still lives in LDLB?

Second, how the modern Final Shore replenish their number? And how the LDLB Eldar could be more powerful than its canon self, even if we leave Twelfth Legion out of equation? And why Angron unnecessarily sacrifices him to decimate a Hive Fleet? That scene was one of pure unadulterated badassness, but I cannot help but to feel death-seeking is a little bit out of established character of LDLB Angron.

Third, why the Luna Wolves have not restored their ranks and files to their former glory after Horus' departure? Chtonia alone has booming trillions of population, after all, even if we are not counting other recruit worlds of XVIth. And why the Night Lords are not casting their webs of recruitment wide if their losses become unsustainable long ago? After all, Imperium should have many other Night Worlds besides Nostramo itself, such as Krieg.

Fourth, could you more elaborate NL/LW/AL/GK deeds during the Betrayal and subsequent Escape? Yes, I know what they did, I have read through every IA you present, after all. However it leaves a lot of of time and space vacuums, unlike, so to speak, those of DG, SW, UM and indeed TS.

Fifth, So the Luna Wolves did not immediately head to Terra because they initially thought they could not arrive in time, no matter how fast they navigate? And why only the Death Guard arrived to lift the Iron Cage? Loyal Legions besides DG were unavailable because they fought against Xenos, rebellions, and traitor and renegade Legions(except IW and IF, which were conducting Iron Cage campaign, that is)?

Sixth, Second Fleet was delayed immensely - via Alpha Legion sabotages, Luna Wolves detachments, Thousand Sons rituals, and their own civil unrest, tarrying conquests and curved course, et cetera, right? And despite of all of these impediments and handicaps, those Three Loyal Legions, led by some of the smartest Primarchs, still concluded they will arrive too late to crush rebellion once and for all even if they run full speed to Terra through forced march while ignoring petty, insignificant threats of galactic dominion?

Most of all, Isstvan System is in itself a galactic fringe world(as we can see from the 30k galaxy map), and still Loyalists in Traitor Legions arrived much earlier even than the First Fleet.

And, since those Three Legions had already completed pre-Scouring and scale of Heresy was much smaller and weaker and mostly constrained on Terra, in LDLB, I suppose Scouring would have been much more easy, shorter and simpler affair, and overall far less messy...is it correct?

Seventh, do you have any plans to elaborate about status of various other races, such as Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Tau? Also, do you have any intention to elucidate about End Times and by doing so giving fitting grand finale to this magnificently epic story? Because, well, your writings are always top-notch. Superb, even, as evident in both LDLB and Renegades Saga.

Eighth, Ultrmarines IA state like this: Now, the entire crusading strength of the Legion, led by Roboute Guilliman, along with the Emperor’s Children under Fulgrim, joined them. Approximately forty thousand Marines reached Terra mere days before the First Fleet of the traitors attacked, largely because- as Warmasters- Guilliman and Fulgrim had had access to some of the Imperium’s fastest ships.

So I deduced Fulgrim and Guilliman accompanied with 20k Astartes each, provided from respective Legion.

And how large the Betrayal-era Word Bearers? They suffered horrendous casualties overall. They were decimated on Terra while leading siege, their rearguard was massacred on Colchis and they were forced to retreat in disarray. And in spite of all of this, they still outnumber combined force of Ultramarines and Luna Wolves on Maccrage. And Luna Wolves are the largest Legion ever, and one of the most unscathed on during both the Betrayal and the Escape.


Another minor nitpick: “You could have been a link to bring the Legion back to its roots,” Kharn explained. “To reunite Cthonia and Terra, with your newfound prestige. And a fully loyal Horus Lupercal… well, that’s something best avoided. It always leads to trouble, for ones such as us.”

Qruze nodded. “Would the Warmaster really have listened to me?”

“He would have,” Kharn said.

Qruze smiled. “Well,” he said, “that’s as nice a thing to begin with as any. Lupercal and the Emperor!”


I consider Lupercal, instead of Warmaster, would be more appropriate. In your universe, Horus has never inaugurated as a Warmaster.

Also, did Luna Wolves detachments harrying the Second Fleet's advance participate the Siege of Terra? Since Iacton Qruze took part of the Siege, I suppose most of LW detachments counter-assaulted and/or fought on walls of Imperial Palace against the Second Fleet during the Siege.

And in the Gray Knights IA: Purgators are the Techmarine equivalents for the Twenty-Second Legion. They take, as is usual, a training course on Mars; but they also spend time on Terra itself, learning more lore than others of the Chapter on their enemies.

I think it has to be "Legion", as oppose to Chapter.

Finally, White Scars IA states Jaghatai Khan arrived Chogoris with "less than a thousand" Legionaries, and Luna Wolves outnumbered them "fifteen to one", and that is "a fifth" of the Luna Wolves' strength.

Which indicates the Luna Wolves full strength is 75,000, as opposed to 320,000 given in LW IA. And in any case, I think a Primarch should be accompanied by more than ten thousand Legionaries, at the very least.

However, Luna Wolves IA states Horus redirected "most of his assembled force" to the Chogoris.

So I consider that has to be revised to "Jaghatai arrived to Chorogirs along with his main force" or "Horus arrived to Chorogris with some of his assembled force and he ordered the rest of his Legion to pursue and destroy fleeing rebel Legions", or such.

And, anyway, what is the Swordstrom's fate? Was it destroyed during the Siege? Or since WS IA states that is "rebuilt", was it destroyed before the Siege?
Commoragh: the thing is, people call it a city, but really it's big enough to make a Hive World seem like some out-of-the-way hamlet. And with the Webway, it's really easy to defend due to the possibility of abandoning sections.

Xenos: Late M31 in canon is a time of Imperial triumph, when the wars of the Heresy have ended and the High Lords rule over a galaxy in a state vaguely approaching peace. Late M31 in LDLB is not that. The xenos are more powerful - the eldar in particular - and Chaos has a foothold in the Maelstrom already. The Imperium under Alpharius Omegon is not going to demobilize much. I suspect - remember that I started this well before the War of the Beast became canon - but I suspect that the Beast was what put an end to this period of overextension (as compared to canon's complacency). Without Horus, Corax, or Curze, the Primarchs were slightly weaker than they thought... and the Beast happened. Following this, then, the Imperium adopted a defensive strategy.

Necrons: IIRC it's canon that, while the majority of the Necrons started awakening in M41, a few Dynasties woke up over the preceding several millennia. In any case that's LDLB canon.

Final Shore: Angron didn't unnecessarily sacrifice himself, he did so necessarily, to save Iyanden. And fighting alone without needing to worry about harming allies (Magnus, even in astral form, is more than capable of handling himself), allowed him to fully unleash his powers. As to the Legion's size - in canon, the reason for limited Astarte numbers is never recruitment; it's always gene-seed, with its expense and its unpredictability. Angandrir's gene-seed has always had a low rejection rate, something his tampering luckily didn't break, and over time eldar technology could be adapted to expedite the process. The Imperium's Astarte numbers are higher than canon, overall, for similar reasons, though unlike the FS they are extremely cautious of any modifications to the gene-seed itself, which lowers their relative numbers (the FS paid some price in lives for that knowledge, but that is far in the past). Also, because the FS doesn't fight as a Legion, the other limitation on Legion size - the size that can be effectively commanded - doesn't enter play.

Lupercal/Warmaster: A simple typo, yes. Thank you for catching it.

Betrayal (and to some extent Escape) tactics: Yeah, frankly this is a bit of a black hole. There were a few (not many) LW/AL/NL on Terra, as well as 40 thousand Ultramarines and some number of EC... but when push comes to shove, the troop movements for the Betrayal in particular were not initially particularly thought through, which is also why I have no grand plans to do further work in this timeline. You're not wrong that it's a mess, a mess exacerbated by losing my initial notes for this project a couple years ago. I can try to add bandages to say i.e. that the Second Fleet was able to sail through Warp Storms that the Imperials could not (and I already have added a few bandages as compared to what I started with), but to do it properly I'd have to rewrite the entirety of the Betrayal sections, and I have too many projects on my plate for my writing speed already (including Renegades, which I need to get back to). I'd rather focus on finishing the final few IAs now, because I do not intend to allow this to remain unfinished. I mean, I started this project more than six years ago... I'd like to think I'm a better writer now than I was then, though who knows.

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post #42 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-14-17, 11:10 PM
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Commoragh: the thing is, people call it a city, but really it's big enough to make a Hive World seem like some out-of-the-way hamlet. And with the Webway, it's really easy to defend due to the possibility of abandoning sections.

Xenos: Late M31 in canon is a time of Imperial triumph, when the wars of the Heresy have ended and the High Lords rule over a galaxy in a state vaguely approaching peace. Late M31 in LDLB is not that. The xenos are more powerful - the eldar in particular - and Chaos has a foothold in the Maelstrom already. The Imperium under Alpharius Omegon is not going to demobilize much. I suspect - remember that I started this well before the War of the Beast became canon - but I suspect that the Beast was what put an end to this period of overextension (as compared to canon's complacency). Without Horus, Corax, or Curze, the Primarchs were slightly weaker than they thought... and the Beast happened. Following this, then, the Imperium adopted a defensive strategy.

Necrons: IIRC it's canon that, while the majority of the Necrons started awakening in M41, a few Dynasties woke up over the preceding several millennia. In any case that's LDLB canon.

Final Shore: Angron didn't unnecessarily sacrifice himself, he did so necessarily, to save Iyanden. And fighting alone without needing to worry about harming allies (Magnus, even in astral form, is more than capable of handling himself), allowed him to fully unleash his powers. As to the Legion's size - in canon, the reason for limited Astarte numbers is never recruitment; it's always gene-seed, with its expense and its unpredictability. Angandrir's gene-seed has always had a low rejection rate, something his tampering luckily didn't break, and over time eldar technology could be adapted to expedite the process. The Imperium's Astarte numbers are higher than canon, overall, for similar reasons, though unlike the FS they are extremely cautious of any modifications to the gene-seed itself, which lowers their relative numbers (the FS paid some price in lives for that knowledge, but that is far in the past). Also, because the FS doesn't fight as a Legion, the other limitation on Legion size - the size that can be effectively commanded - doesn't enter play.

Lupercal/Warmaster: A simple typo, yes. Thank you for catching it.

Betrayal (and to some extent Escape) tactics: Yeah, frankly this is a bit of a black hole. There were a few (not many) LW/AL/NL on Terra, as well as 40 thousand Ultramarines and some number of EC... but when push comes to shove, the troop movements for the Betrayal in particular were not initially particularly thought through, which is also why I have no grand plans to do further work in this timeline. You're not wrong that it's a mess, a mess exacerbated by losing my initial notes for this project a couple years ago. I can try to add bandages to say i.e. that the Second Fleet was able to sail through Warp Storms that the Imperials could not (and I already have added a few bandages as compared to what I started with), but to do it properly I'd have to rewrite the entirety of the Betrayal sections, and I have too many projects on my plate for my writing speed already (including Renegades, which I need to get back to). I'd rather focus on finishing the final few IAs now, because I do not intend to allow this to remain unfinished. I mean, I started this project more than six years ago... I'd like to think I'm a better writer now than I was then, though who knows.
So you don't have any plan about Xenos Indexes? And how much Xenos are powerful compared to canon, from Orks to Tyranids and Necrons to Eldar? I doesn't seem like that LDLB Crusade was shorter or less thoroughgoing than canon GC, if not more so. So Xenos are "upgraded" from their canon selves, just like the Imperium is far more powerful, prosperous, enlightened, advanced and above all, secure than its ramshackle canon self?

And that is the reason why the Alpharius maintain relatively small size of the Legion, and Luna Wolves and Night Lords continue to be stabilized at around 160k(Legion administration and gene-seed issue respectively)?

I have thought Curze vanished during M33...? And Horus and Corax disappeared before the late M31? Horus fought for the Imperium for "hundreds of years", so I have considered his departure occurred early M32, at the very least.

It is a really sad thing to hear. Anyway, in RDRB, Scouring was much shorter and easier affair than canon? And the Death Guard fought against the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors, the Gray Knights and Thousand Sons against the Salamanders, and the rest fought the rest?

Anyway, if gene seed stability is mattered...I have given impression that the Chaos Legions are bigger than the Imperial Legions in general - despite their loss and attrition rate is by no means lower than the Imperials. Chaos gene seed is utterly tainted, twisted messes, their implantation success rate is pitiable. Moreover, unlike the Imperium or the FS, they don't have unlimited access of advanced technology and necessary facilities. Furthermore, their recruitment base is infinitely smaller than the Imperium. So in canon, number of Chaos Astartes is much fewer than Chapter scale hundreds of thousands of Imperial Astartes.

Also, no, Imperial Legions are not significantly bigger than Great Crusade-era Legions; a lot of Legions were in excess of 150k during the Crusade, and SW plus TS are far smaller than the canon - in fact, less than a half.

And, do Chaos Legions have access to Eternal pattern Dreadnoughts? If not, how they have managed to eliminate Dreadnought degeneration?

Besides, how do you think about force discrepancy between LW and WS IAs? And could you briefly elaborate overall force disposition of NL/LW/AL during the Betrayal and Scoring?

Finally, World Eaters IA states: Perhaps too honorable. Ehrlen could have seen Angron as a Primarch of the Nineteenth, more than the Twelfth.

So in this universe, Corax and Angron have similar character and personality? If so, why they have not forged lasting bond of friendship?

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post #43 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-16-17, 02:03 AM
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Several more quick question: Does Imperium have any technologist/mechanical Legion besides the Raven Guard? After all, Chaos have at least four, or five, if you counts White Scars. And which Imperium Legion uses the largest number of vehicles and aircraft? Which Imperium Legion possesses the mightiest void and fleet assets? Could you arrange and list them in order of from the most to the least? And would you mind if I ask same question regarding Chaos Legions?

Could you elaborate primary differences between military doctrines of the Night Lords, the Luna Wolves, the Gray Knights and the "assembled" White Scars? And why the GK's Company fleet is called "Black Ships"? Also, I suppose Imperial Legions are normally operating on Squad-scale from the IA's description of the GK fleet operation as usual - is it correct? In addition, what is the Iron Hand's modus operandi? Simply mass assault, trickery and sorcery, without any element of line-breaking set-piece armoured assault or overwhelming precision firepower we are so familiar with? I can't help to feel they are as vanilla as the World Bearers and the Doom Fists.

And why Gray Knights hive mind effects and psychic powers are maximized at 110,000 number? Also, do the LDLB Ultramarines have Vigil Operatii?

Anyway, I have given impression that the Chaos Legions are in LDLB, with few exceptions such as the Dark Angels, the Chaos Legions are generally incapable and less competent than the Imperial Legions, and Chaos Primarchs are inferior than Loyal Primarchs, just as canon, perhaps even more so, and do not mistake - I LIKE it. Since inefficiency is Chaos. And I don't like canon's taking of "Loyalists constantly loss despite its near monopoly of able Primarchs and paragon Legions due to Warmaster and Chaos machinations".

And may I ask you to provide precise, not approximate, number of each Legion in 41k (and immediately prior the Great Betrayal), both the Loyalists and the Traitors?

Why the Emperor did not fight on front line during the Siege and destroy Traitor Primarchs? Magnus' breach of Imperial Webway and subsequent Webway War did not occur in LDLB. And what the Legio Custodes, Silent Sisterhood, Ordo Sinister, Officio Assassinorum and Templi Chronos had done entire juncture of Betrayal and Escape?

Rampage of Blind King in Eye of Terror permanently destroyed large portions of EoT? And did Blind King destroy any Traitors EoT homeworld?

During the Operation Faiyum, what the entire Thousand Sons had done besides Magnus and his Captains? And Ferrus has avoided confrontation with Magnus until the bitter end? Also, the Thousand Sons fill the role of "special" Navigators and Astropaths, along with the Gray Knights? And Thousand Sons Malcador allocated role is Imperium's primary scholar-scientists and psychic research group?

In addition, how large archives of the Thousand Sons? Second largest after the Ptolemy Library of Macragge?

Finally, what is Horus' ultimate fate? I have no doubt that he will arrive intended destination and continue to live, founding a society based on core tenets of freedom and liberty. Had he encountered and defeated Tyranid tendrils during intergalactic voyage to Andromeda?

Oh, and LDLB's 'normal' humanity are aware of threat and true natrue of the Chaos and Xenos? And how much weaker the Chaos compared to canon one?

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post #44 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-22-17, 03:36 AM Thread Starter
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Several more quick question: Does Imperium have any technologist/mechanical Legion besides the Raven Guard? After all, Chaos have at least four, or five, if you counts White Scars. And which Imperium Legion uses the largest number of vehicles and aircraft? Which Imperium Legion possesses the mightiest void and fleet assets? Could you arrange and list them in order of from the most to the least? And would you mind if I ask same question regarding Chaos Legions?

Could you elaborate primary differences between military doctrines of the Night Lords, the Luna Wolves, the Gray Knights and the "assembled" White Scars? And why the GK's Company fleet is called "Black Ships"? Also, I suppose Imperial Legions are normally operating on Squad-scale from the IA's description of the GK fleet operation as usual - is it correct? In addition, what is the Iron Hand's modus operandi? Simply mass assault, trickery and sorcery, without any element of line-breaking set-piece armoured assault or overwhelming precision firepower we are so familiar with? I can't help to feel they are as vanilla as the World Bearers and the Doom Fists.

And why Gray Knights hive mind effects and psychic powers are maximized at 110,000 number? Also, do the LDLB Ultramarines have Vigil Operatii?

Anyway, I have given impression that the Chaos Legions are in LDLB, with few exceptions such as the Dark Angels, the Chaos Legions are generally incapable and less competent than the Imperial Legions, and Chaos Primarchs are inferior than Loyal Primarchs, just as canon, perhaps even more so, and do not mistake - I LIKE it. Since inefficiency is Chaos. And I don't like canon's taking of "Loyalists constantly loss despite its near monopoly of able Primarchs and paragon Legions due to Warmaster and Chaos machinations".

And may I ask you to provide precise, not approximate, number of each Legion in 41k (and immediately prior the Great Betrayal), both the Loyalists and the Traitors?

Why the Emperor did not fight on front line during the Siege and destroy Traitor Primarchs? Magnus' breach of Imperial Webway and subsequent Webway War did not occur in LDLB. And what the Legio Custodes, Silent Sisterhood, Ordo Sinister, Officio Assassinorum and Templi Chronos had done entire juncture of Betrayal and Escape?

Rampage of Blind King in Eye of Terra permanently destroyed large portions of EoT? And did Blind King destroy any Traitors homeworld?

During the Operation Faiyum, what the entire Thousand Sons had done besides Magnus and his Captains? And Ferrus has avoided confrontation with Magnus until the bitter end? Also, the Thousand Sons fill the role of "special" Navigators and Astropaths, along with the Gray Knights? And Thousand Sons Malcador allocated role is Imperial's primary scholar-scientists and psychic research group?

In addition, how large archives of the Thousand Sons? Second largest after the Ptolemy Library of Macragge?

Finally, what is Horus' ultimate fate? I have no doubt that he will arrive intended destination and continue to live, founding a society based on core tenets of freedom and liberty. Had he encountered and defeated Tyranid tendrils during intergalactic voyage to Andromeda?

Oh, and LDLB's 'normal' humanity are aware of threat and true natrue of the Chaos and Xenos? And how much weaker the Chaos compared to canon one?
Apologies for the late response. Here's some answers, at least:

The Imperium does not have a dedicated technological Legion that is not the Raven Guard per se. The Death Guard and Ultramarines do have a greater emphasis on technology than the other Legions, though. You're not wrong that more of the Chaos Legions have a tendency towards technological excellence... but then, they need it; there is not much of an independent Dark Mechanicum left in LDLB, so the Chaos Legions also fulfill much of its role. They also can't rely on wonders constructed by other Chaos Legions, or by those built by allies (as the Final Shore do).

The Legions of the Imperium, from fewest to most fleet assets:

Grey Knights

Night Lords

Space Wolves

Alpha Legion

Thousand Sons

Emperor's Children

Luna Wolves

Raven Guard

Ultramarines

Death Guard

The Legions of the Imperium, from lowest to highest use of vehicles and aircraft:

Space Wolves

Night Lords

Emperor's Children

Thousand Sons

Alpha Legion

Luna Wolves

Ultramarines

Death Guard

Grey Knights

Raven Guard

Imperial Astartes usually operate on the scale of several Squads, much as in canon.

The Iron Hands do not use vehicles nearly as heavily as in canon. But that is not to say they are vanilla, per se. If an Iron Hands force engages in open combat, you can expect to see, for instance, Astartes who have succumbed to the Itch - often becoming hulking machines of war not unlike canon Obliterators. Moreover, Iron Hands have a particularly high proportion of heavy weaponry, including both artillery and personal heavy weapons, which can drown enemy forces in ammunition; a somewhat higher proportion of Iron Hand Astartes than for most Chaos Legions also focus on sniping foes from range (sometimes, with the aid of sorcery, from ludicrous range). So... precision firepower yes, armored assault no, broadly speaking. (At least that's what I'm thinking. Everything in this post should be taken as tentative.) The Word Bearers have a broadly similar focus on ranged over melee, but then they are rarely without allies, whether daemon or human. They also tend to be relatively mobile, not in the least due to their highest proportion of vehicles out of the triad. The Doom Fists share a fondness for artillery with the Iron Hands, but for the most part their focus - in both ranged and melee - is on individual excellence.

The Word Bearer combat stereotype is a line of infantry laying down fire, not unlike the Imperial Army except for the significantly greater firepower and accuracy involved. The Doom Fist combat stereotype is a duelist and/or sharpshooter champion, toppling their enemies from the battlements of a great fortress. But the Iron Hand stereotype is a squad, each of whose warriors is armed with some impossible weapon he designed himself, dug in on top of a hill and turning their enemies' location into a crater.

What was the Emperor doing during the Betrayal? That's an excellent question. It's one that I do plan to address. Probably in the Emperor's Children IA.

What about the rest of the Imperial institutions? They exist, they're just not the focus of this account. The Custodes, for instance, fought on the Palace's walls, and even now guard the Golden Throne. The Assassins didn't manage to achieve much during the Betrayal, but have since given Alpharius Omegon many reasons to be grateful for their existence.

Faiyum required much of the Thousand Sons' efforts to maintain the ritual and the route back, though only the Captains were actually thrown into the Warp. It was not only the Captains who died in the process, either. Ferrus has not had a fight to the death with Magnus... well, Primarch duels remain somewhat rare overall. The TS are not Navigators/Astropaths for the Imperium in general, but they maintain similar departments for Legion use. And yes to Malcador's decree.

The overall archives of the Thousand Sons are vast, but not comparable in size to the overall Ultramarine archives. They are, however, more dangerous, and some would say more useful.

Horus's fate... well, in my mind, he survived, but the Tyranid threat does not come from Andromeda but from a perpendicular direction, hitting it not long before it hits the MW. Now, in that galaxy, Horus has to deal with the greatest war Andromeda has ever seen, at the same time knowing that his birthplace is facing a still graver assault and unable to be sure if it holds.

The general population of LDLB's Imperium is aware of the xenos threat, but if it is aware of Chaos at all (which depends on the planet - this is a more centralized Imperium but certainly not a fully uniform one), it is in vague terms, because Chaos is a memetic danger. Of course, governors and other elites (whether hereditary or elected), as well as scholars and such, tend to know a lot more.

Chaos is weaker than canon in terms of total strength relative to the Imperium, but fairly close to canon in terms of the threat it poses, due to a greater capacity to come together in times of crisis.

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The Emperor has turned to Chaos. The dream of the Imperium has become a nightmare. But Horus and his Coalition stand against the dark, here at the end of time.

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What was broken has been mended. And what was burned away can never be reforged.

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post #45 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-22-17, 03:51 PM
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Apologies for the late response. Here's some answers, at least:

The Imperium does not have a dedicated technological Legion that is not the Raven Guard per se. The Death Guard and Ultramarines do have a greater emphasis on technology than the other Legions, though. You're not wrong that more of the Chaos Legions have a tendency towards technological excellence... but then, they need it; there is not much of an independent Dark Mechanicum left in LDLB, so the Chaos Legions also fulfill much of its role. They also can't rely on wonders constructed by other Chaos Legions, or by those built by allies (as the Final Shore do).

The Legions of the Imperium, from fewest to most fleet assets:

Grey Knights

Night Lords

Space Wolves

Alpha Legion

Thousand Sons

Emperor's Children

Luna Wolves

Raven Guard

Ultramarines

Death Guard

The Legions of the Imperium, from lowest to highest use of vehicles and aircraft:

Space Wolves

Night Lords

Emperor's Children

Thousand Sons

Alpha Legion

Luna Wolves

Ultramarines

Death Guard

Grey Knights

Raven Guard

Imperial Astartes usually operate on the scale of several Squads, much as in canon.

The Iron Hands do not use vehicles nearly as heavily as in canon. But that is not to say they are vanilla, per se. If an Iron Hands force engages in open combat, you can expect to see, for instance, Astartes who have succumbed to the Itch - often becoming hulking machines of war not unlike canon Obliterators. Moreover, Iron Hands have a particularly high proportion of heavy weaponry, including both artillery and personal heavy weapons, which can drown enemy forces in ammunition; a somewhat higher proportion of Iron Hand Astartes than for most Chaos Legions also focus on sniping foes from range (sometimes, with the aid of sorcery, from ludicrous range). So... precision firepower yes, armored assault no, broadly speaking. (At least that's what I'm thinking. Everything in this post should be taken as tentative.) The Word Bearers have a broadly similar focus on ranged over melee, but then they are rarely without allies, whether daemon or human. They also tend to be relatively mobile, not in the least due to their highest proportion of vehicles out of the triad. The Doom Fists share a fondness for artillery with the Iron Hands, but for the most part their focus - in both ranged and melee - is on individual excellence.

The Word Bearer combat stereotype is a line of infantry laying down fire, not unlike the Imperial Army except for the significantly greater firepower and accuracy involved. The Doom Fist combat stereotype is a duelist and/or sharpshooter champion, toppling their enemies from the battlements of a great fortress. But the Iron Hand stereotype is a squad, each of whose warriors is armed with some impossible weapon he designed himself, dug in on top of a hill and turning their enemies' location into a crater.

What was the Emperor doing during the Betrayal? That's an excellent question. It's one that I do plan to address. Probably in the Emperor's Children IA.

What about the rest of the Imperial institutions? They exist, they're just not the focus of this account. The Custodes, for instance, fought on the Palace's walls, and even now guard the Golden Throne. The Assassins didn't manage to achieve much during the Betrayal, but have since given Alpharius Omegon many reasons to be grateful for their existence.

Faiyum required much of the Thousand Sons' efforts to maintain the ritual and the route back, though only the Captains were actually thrown into the Warp. It was not only the Captains who died in the process, either. Ferrus has not had a fight to the death with Magnus... well, Primarch duels remain somewhat rare overall. The TS are not Navigators/Astropaths for the Imperium in general, but they maintain similar departments for Legion use. And yes to Malcador's decree.

The overall archives of the Thousand Sons are vast, but not comparable in size to the overall Ultramarine archives. They are, however, more dangerous, and some would say more useful.

Horus's fate... well, in my mind, he survived, but the Tyranid threat does not come from Andromeda but from a perpendicular direction, hitting it not long before it hits the MW. Now, in that galaxy, Horus has to deal with the greatest war Andromeda has ever seen, at the same time knowing that his birthplace is facing a still graver assault and unable to be sure if it holds.

The general population of LDLB's Imperium is aware of the xenos threat, but if it is aware of Chaos at all (which depends on the planet - this is a more centralized Imperium but certainly not a fully uniform one), it is in vague terms, because Chaos is a memetic danger. Of course, governors and other elites (whether hereditary or elected), as well as scholars and such, tend to know a lot more.

Chaos is weaker than canon in terms of total strength relative to the Imperium, but fairly close to canon in terms of the threat it poses, due to a greater capacity to come together in times of crisis.
First of all, your details poured in the setting is nigh-encyclopedic. Truly astonishing. I cannot help to wonder how magnificent your work if you have not lost your notebook. I genuinely think that loss is almost as grievous as Cordwainer Smith's lapse in a lake.

Thus, LDLB Dark Mechanicum is mostly incorporated into Chaos Legions and each CL does not lend or share its technology with allies? And Final Shore are not only incorporating Eldar technology into standard Legion arsenal, but also actively utilizing Eldar produced weaponry and warmachines?

Gray Knights and Night Lords have the fewest fleet...that is unexpected. I assumed their fleet strength would be significant. However, they are generally operating company scale, instead of squad scale. And the both company and squad could be carried by a single Battle Barge or Strike Cruiser. So...it is not nearly as surprising it might have been.

Emperors Children have fewer vehicle and aircraft asset than the most other Legions? That is really unexpected. I have speculated they have to be at middle tier at the very least - though their fleet is solid enough, immediately below the Luna Wolves.

Death Guards have significant fleet asset in canon, however their vehicle asset is meager. On the contrary, in LDLB they are the indisputable maestro of void warfare rivaling canon Imperial Fists(it seems void warfare has never been a forte of LDLB IF, whilst FS are proficient at fleet engagement and boarding actions) and Mortarion puts far greater emphasis in science and technology instead of blindly and stupidly relying on endurance and CBRN weaponry...far cry from his canon self indeed. So it is not surprising at all that the DG boasts the best fleet and third most powerful mechanical assets and is a very different beast distanced from canon.

Luna Wolves have fourth and fifth largest fleet and mechanical asset respectively. That is largely expected. Though it is a bit surprising that Ultramarines make more use of vehicles and aircraft...when considering LDLB LW prefers "armoured speartip" and putting great emphasis on mechanical warfare. Anyway, canon UM always have both assets in abundance, in 30k as well as 40k(and in contrast to canon, they are masters of void warfare, especially fleet engagement and defensive maneuver). And in this universe, Raven Guard have even greater fleet asset than the LW. Intriguing. Since canon RG have scanty armoured asset and even slimmer fleet.

And what exactly is the LW's stance of science and technology? While they are far from Luddite like SW and NL, they are definitely not fond of technology and seem to take great care to avoid overly relying on mechanics.

Alpha Legion have lesser fleet than the Thousand Sons? In canon, the AL have one of the greatest fleet(even if they slightly lack heavy warships and heavily focuses on faster, nimbler ships) among the Legions, whereas the TS have one of the smallest fleet. Likewise, their armoured and mechanical asset is very substantial and advanced, possibly the most advanced if setting aside the Iron Hands.

Still, this is not canon universe, and unlike canon, LDLB AL is a very small Legion(80,000 - canon RG size), if not the smallest, while in canon AL is among the largest(180,000+).

I wonder whether TS vehicles and fleets are psychic in nature, since canon is certainly following that line - they pioneered psychic dreadnoughts, their ships fire ethereal lightening and flame, they utilize psychic automata legions to bolster their ranks and soak enemy fire, Order of Ruin is basically psychic Ordo Reductor etc.

So the Gray Knights are the second greatest experts and proponents of armoured and mechanical warfare amongst the Imperial Legions? Are they technologically capable?

And how about the ranking of the Chaos Legions?

As much as I have surmised - even though LDLB Imperium has more Astartes than canon, Imperium is still far too bigger and available amounts Astartes is far too few. Furthermore LDLB Imperium is even vaster than canon Imperium.

So the IH is not a generic Legions at all. I see. And Doom Fists are focusing on individual excellence? Thus what is principle difference between them and the Emperors Children? In any case, It seems only the World Bearers are 'generic' after all. I now fully comprehend each and every of your Legion is unique and idiosyncratic and really no one is 'vanilla' in the same sense of canon closely following ethos of HH(excellent) instead of 40k(meh).

And primary combat doctrine of LDLB Imperial Army(as well as WB) is a steady stream of infantry gun-line advance supported by armour and artillery and aircraft assets? Is there any Solar Auxilla/Saturnine Hoplites equivalent?

So each Legion has its intrinsic combat stereotype in LDLB? That is fantastic. Could you more elaborate each Legion's integral combat style and tactics?

I'm indeed looking forward to see the EC IA. Though the LDLB Raven Guard seems fascinatingly intriguing...

So Ten Thousands fought on the walls? Then the Palace is defended by the six Legions in fact. Had the sudden disappearance of WE ever needed to coerce Lorgar to enact his most desperate gambit? Their combat prowess portrayed in the both MoM and Inferno was no less than godlike. And the LDLB Imperium has the Officio Assassinorum as an official agency like the canon one?

Psychic scholar-scientists, philosopher-kings...there is and always will be destined role of the Sons, but tragically unfulfilled, never blossomed its full potential in canon, just same as other Legions.

However, as opposed to canon, each and every Imperial Legions fulfill its Emperor-intended, Malcador-assigned role and realize inborn transhuman potential to their utmost. Pure undiluted awesomeness.

By the way, what is primary difference between the rule of Malcador and Alpharius?

So esoteric knowledge gathered by scholars is typically more practical than common knowledge gathered by historians. Understood.

If the Tyrannic War is the greatest war Andromeda has ever seen...that means Andromeda has never seen conflict of similar scope and intensity such as War in Heaven or Iron War or Horus Heresy and is a fairly peaceful sort of galaxy(at least compared to MW). I hope Horus' triumphant return at the End Times.

So your Imperium's governors and other ruling elites are democratically elected or appointed from central government and Legiones Astartes, as well as usually far more capable, professional, morally upright and possessing deeper knowledge of threats such as Xenos and Chaos in general? This Imperium is indeed an Enlightened Utopia compared to its abject canon self.

Anyway, I have thought thanks to ceaseless efforts of the Gray Knights, generalized popular education, information and communication are more or less available in LDLB Imperium, if somewhat unstable, much like our modern Earth...?

I have supposed as much. So overall objective strength of LDLB Chaos is stronger than canon(especially considering the sheer number of Chaos Legionaries and superior technology...) and also boosts greater cohesion and coordination, but it is still weaker than LDLB Imperium?

And how much current LDLB Imperial weaponry, armour(especially Astartes power armor), vehicles, aircraft and voidships and other various assortments of equipment is different from the Great Crusade era?

Finally, could you check my previous reply if you have enough margin of time?
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post #46 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-24-17, 11:38 AM
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And, if you like, could you elaborate naval doctrines of the LDLB Legions? Since combat doctrine section are largely focusing on planetary invasion and defense, rather than void warfare itself.
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post #47 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-25-17, 07:56 AM
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A quick question regarding the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels: Do LDLB DA have any Wing? And LDLB SW do not have Iron Priests?

Also, in LDLB, both the Ultramarines and the Emperors Children are specialized(or, more precisely, one of their all-rounded faculties) at defensive warfare and fortification construction? And Imperial Legions such as DG, UM, LW and AL(and of course, RG and GK - but they are too obvious to be mentioned) are often enough deploying armoured spearhead and rapid dominance air force to be considered as a mechanized army?
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Again, I'm sorry about the slow responses - short on both time and inspiration lately. As usual, these answers should not be taken as 100% final, especially if contradictions are present.

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So you don't have any plan about Xenos Indexes? And how much Xenos are powerful compared to canon, from Orks to Tyranids and Necrons to Eldar? I doesn't seem like that LDLB Crusade was shorter or less thoroughgoing than canon GC, if not more so. So Xenos are "upgraded" from their canon selves, just like the Imperium is far more powerful, prosperous, enlightened, advanced and above all, secure than its ramshackle canon self?
Nope, no plans for xeno indices. Though all in all, the xenos are indeed more powerful than canon. The Final Shore's presence has improved the eldar's situation a fair bit (both directly and by limiting their isolationism). The tyranids are as in canon, they're bad enough as is. Necrons are also the same - neither of those two are affected by ten thousand years of a stronger Imperium. They might both be taking the Imperium more seriously than in canon, though. The dark eldar have had their power oscillate greatly over the millennia - in M41 they're doing pretty well for themselves, though in a less stable fashion than 40K. The orks got the short end of the stick for quite some time. The Beast, for instance, never threatened Terra, though he cut a swath through the Imperium's outer regions. But enough time breeds complacency, even for Primarchs (especially given the number of other foes). The Beast was less powerful than canon... but Ghazghkull is moreso.

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And that is the reason why the Alpharius maintain relatively small size of the Legion, and Luna Wolves and Night Lords continue to be stabilized at around 160k(Legion administration and gene-seed issue respectively)?

I have thought think Curze vanished during M33...? And Horus and Corax disappeared before the late M31? Horus fought for the Imperium for "hundreds of years", so I have considered his departure occurred early M32, at the very least.
Horus and Corax both departed the Imperium in late M31 (centuries after the Betrayal, which was in its first decade). Yeah, Curze was still with the Imperium in this period. But it's no accident that the Arc was launched at the zenith of Imperial power. This was a time when humanity seemed so mighty that the galaxy was not enough. (And nonetheless, of course, well-aware of its own fragility... well, the Primarchs were; certain Imperial Army generals really weren't.)

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Anyway, in RDRB, Scouring was much shorter and easier affair than canon? And the Death Guard fought against the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors, the Gray Knights and Thousand Sons against the Salamanders, and the rest fought the rest?

Anyway, if gene seed stability is mattered...I have given impression that Chaos Legions are bigger than Imperial Legions in general - despite their loss and attrition rate is by no means lower than the Imperials. Chaos gene seed is utterly tainted, twisted messes, their implantation success rate is pitiable. Moreover, unlike the Imperium or the FS, they don't have unlimited access of advanced technology and necessary facilities. Furthermore, their recruitment base is infinitely smaller than the Imperium. So in canon, number of Chaos Astartes is much fewer than Chapter scale hundreds of thousands of Imperial Astartes.

Also, no, Imperial Legions are not significantly bigger than Great Crusade-era Legions; a lot of Legions were in excess of 150k during the Crusade, and SW plus Ts are far smaller than the canon - in fact, less than a half.
Shorter? Well, from a certain perspective, it went on for a millennium, because Alpharius Omegon kept going where canon's High Lords did not. And 'easier' is also debatable: in canon, the worlds that rebelled during the Heresy sided with Horus, and while their reconquest wasn't easy there was more of a sense of direction. In LDLB, there was no shortage of governors or populations or protectorates who seized the opportunity to go their own way, even aside from the influence of Chaos; and they were not disheartened by Lorgar's death. Moreover, there were more temporary Warp Storms. In LDLB, the Scouring was almost the Great Crusade mk2, albeit much of the territory was being reconquered from the Great Crusade. More successful, though, beyond a doubt, even when taking into account the Beast's counterstroke.

Legion size: Chaos has ways. One might even speak of Chaos having a technological advantage of a sort with their sorcery - technology founded on atrocity, but Chaos really does grant power, even if it's never power worth taking. Some gene-seed lines have a low rejection rate but impart weaknesses or curses on those that receive them. Some Chaos Legions mass-produce gene-seed in Dark Forgeworlds, if at heavy expense. Ultimately Chaos has lower Astarte numbers than the Imperium, and on average lower physical quality of said Astartes, but not by as much as might be imagined.

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And, do Chaos Legions have access to to Eternal pattern Dreadnoughts? If not, how they have managed to eliminate Dreadnought degeneration?

So in this universe, Corax and Angron have similar character and personality? If so, why they have not forged lasting bond of friendship?
Chaos does not have the Eternal pattern itself, but they do have ways of eliminating Dreadnought degeneration. Or... altering it, at least.

And as to Angron - Ehrlen was comparing him not with Corax, who hasn't been found yet at this point, but rather with the Raven Guard as it was before finding their Primarch.

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post #49 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-27-17, 12:04 PM
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Again, I'm sorry about the slow responses - short on both time and inspiration lately. As usual, these answers should not be taken as 100% final, especially if contradictions are present.



Nope, no plans for xeno indices. Though all in all, the xenos are indeed more powerful than canon. The Final Shore's presence has improved the eldar's situation a fair bit (both directly and by limiting their isolationism). The tyranids are as in canon, they're bad enough as is. Necrons are also the same - neither of those two are affected by ten thousand years of a stronger Imperium. They might both be taking the Imperium more seriously than in canon, though. The dark eldar have had their power oscillate greatly over the millennia - in M41 they're doing pretty well for themselves, though in a less stable fashion than 40K. The orks got the short end of the stick for quite some time. The Beast, for instance, never threatened Terra, though he cut a swath through the Imperium's outer regions. But enough time breeds complacency, even for Primarchs (especially given the number of other foes). The Beast was less powerful than canon... but Ghazghkull is moreso.



Horus and Corax both departed the Imperium in late M31 (centuries after the Betrayal, which was in its first decade). Yeah, Curze was still with the Imperium in this period. But it's no accident that the Arc was launched at the zenith of Imperial power. This was a time when humanity seemed so mighty that the galaxy was not enough. (And nonetheless, of course, well-aware of its own fragility... well, the Primarchs were; certain Imperial Army generals really weren't.)



Shorter? Well, from a certain perspective, it went on for a millennium, because Alpharius Omegon kept going where canon's High Lords did not. And 'easier' is also debatable: in canon, the worlds that rebelled during the Heresy sided with Horus, and while their reconquest wasn't easy there was more of a sense of direction. In LDLB, there was no shortage of governors or populations or protectorates who seized the opportunity to go their own way, even aside from the influence of Chaos; and they were not disheartened by Lorgar's death. Moreover, there were more temporary Warp Storms. In LDLB, the Scouring was almost the Great Crusade mk2, albeit much of the territory was being reconquered from the Great Crusade. More successful, though, beyond a doubt, even when taking into account the Beast's counterstroke.

Legion size: Chaos has ways. One might even speak of Chaos having a technological advantage of a sort with their sorcery - technology founded on atrocity, but Chaos really does grant power, even if it's never power worth taking. Some gene-seed lines have a low rejection rate but impart weaknesses or curses on those that receive them. Some Chaos Legions mass-produce gene-seed in Dark Forgeworlds, if at heavy expense. Ultimately Chaos has lower Astarte numbers than the Imperium, and on average lower physical quality of said Astartes, but not by as much as might be imagined.



Chaos does not have the Eternal pattern itself, but they do have ways of eliminating Dreadnought degeneration. Or... altering it, at least.

And as to Angron - Ehrlen was comparing him not with Corax, who hasn't been found yet at this point, but rather with the Raven Guard as it was before finding their Primarch.
You confirmed that even without Final Shore, LDLB Eldar would be a completely different beast from canon - they are basically loosely confederated empire. So I assumed Tyranid and Necron would be similarly more powerful and centralized...but yeah, even without such improvements, both of threats are dire enough, and in canon they have exerted(or reclaimed) only a fraction of their full powr - though I can easily see eminent Necron Phaeron such as Imotekh acknowledging LDLB Imperium as a worthy opponent blocking reinstatement of Necron hegemony of the Galaxy, rather than noisome vermin need to be immediately eradicated.

As for Orks...I have assumed their fair would be extremely poor compared to canon and barely avoiding complete extinction - think final days of Great Crusade and/or M31 to M32 Galaxy before Beast Arises - however, on the other hand they are stemming the tide and managed to subsist through evolving to War of Krork.

In essence, after you confirmed Beast Arises occurred in this universe, I imaged LDLB Orks will be remnants of the Beast - ceaselessly constantly controlled, contained and culled to ensure they never become a threat again.

As such, their position is weaker than canon Orks, but just like Chaos, their weakness is only relative. But it seems LDLB Orks are same as canon and only managed to survive thanks to complacency of the Imperium.

In any case, how Ghazghkull have grown up become more powerful than his canon self? Is he the Second Beast?

Last but not least, how Drukhari have managed to survive and thrive? I have assumed in 41k, they would be driven to near extinction by either Imperium of Man or Imperium Aeldari Secundus. Or perhaps Khaine's Gate finally breached and Chaos flooded the Dark City. Or Necron invaded Commorragh thorough Dolmen Gates and scoured every life in it - although it is less certain whether they able to demolish Dark City if Imperium failed to achieve Drukhari extermination despite of multiple efforts for millenia.

You also said Dark Eldar are even more unstable and fractured than its canon self - thus I suppose Asdrubael Vect either dead or neutralized?

Hmm. Thus in LDLB Great Crusade was concluded in a scant two centuries, just same as canon - I have always thought it is too brief timeperiod to conquer an entire galaxy. Anyhow, ultimately that does not matter - if you decided both Horus and Corax departed Imperium in the late M31, then so it is.

So LDLB rebellion was messier,and Xenos, rebellion and other threats resurgent(even leaving aside Chaos) and Warp Storms were greater, and Scouring was virtually Great Crusade MK II...yeah, now it makes more sense why so many Legions were conspicuously absent during the lengthy and crucial anti-Chaos campaigns such as Iron Cage or Maelstrom Subjugation or Breaking of Salamanders...and yes, if LDLB scouring was the Second Great Crusade to all intent and purpose, it can explain why despite of a myriad of independent scouring campaigns conducted by main force units of three Legions - namely the NL, LW, AL - and other various detachments of other Legions(such as Azure Crusade of the Ultramarines or Pacification of Barbarus Sector of the Death Guard), Milky Way was still in turmoil for centuries (that much could be deduced from Guilliman's monologue) even after the end of Betrayal and Escape.

All in all, while rebellion was much more decentralized than canon, it seems Imperium's dominion of its territory was by far weaker than canon. After all, during Horus Heresy, a third of the galaxy sided with Warmaster, and a myriad of systems and dominions and protectorates declared neutrality or outright seceded from the Imperium - and still, seven years of Scouring was enough to restore semblance of peace and stability to the Galaxy.

Ah, yes. I forgot overall technological base, and technology itself of the LDLB Chaos is on a par with, or even greater, than the Imperium. They also have sorcery. And they can mass produce gene seed from their Dark Forgeworlds. So gene seed stability and compatibility is out of equation, and I conjecture they can control gene seed rejection, too.

However I disagree Chaos has lower Astartes number in average: currently, approximate size of 16 Legions has been presented, and it can be evenly divided into Imperials and Traitors; though most Legions have not been given exact 41k number yet, some Legions are more so than other(so I attached question mark to them - have to resort on conjecture)

Loyalists: 50k?(SW) + 160k (NL) + 140k (DG) + 320k? (UM) + 45k (TS) + 165k? (LW) + 80k (AL) + 110k (GK) = 1070k

Traitors: 110k (DA) + 210k (IW) + 200k? (WS) + 125k (IF) + 200k? (IH) + 200k? (FS) + 100k? (WB) + 60k (RC) = 1205k, if we only count Chaos Legions, then 1005k.

So Imperials have fewer Legionaries than Traitors in totality, and almost even number with Chaos, and like I said, Chaos Legions have greater number in general.

Introduction of EC, BA, SM and RG can change this trend, though. Whilst it is somewhat doubtful that any of these Legions will have 200k+ Astartes, I have got a feeling that LDLB Raven Guard are going to be a huge Legion...(in a similar way as canon Crusade-era Iron Warriors - absolutely insane logistics, mass-production of quality gene-seed and sterile, clinical, scientific process of recruitment, implantation and training regime etc. combined with low casualty rate comparable, if not less, with canon RG)

I see. He is referring Pale Nomads...however, canon Dust Clad have never been honorable sorts - in fact, they were utter pragmatists and unashamed slavers. So I suppose LDLB Nineteenth was significantly different from canon self even before reunion with their Primarch.

And, as for Corax...how he combats? What is his fighting style? Now I significantly doubt whether he will even use same weapon.

Indeed for that matter, is there any Primarch using same weapon and/or fighting style as canon?

Finally, would you mind if I ask to identity of mysterious red haired woman-god reared and taught Alpharius Omegon? I personally speculate her true nature would be human-C'tan(aka. Iash'uddra, the Endless Swarm) hybrid.
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post #50 of 77 (permalink) Old 08-13-17, 01:01 AM Thread Starter
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You confirmed that even without Final Shore, LDLB Eldar would be a completely different beast from canon - they are basically loosely confederated empire. So I assumed Tyranid and Necron would be similarly more powerful and centralized...but yeah, even without such improvements, both of threats are dire enough, and in canon they have exerted(or reclaimed) only a fraction of their full powr - though I can easily see eminent Necron Phaeron such as Imotekh acknowledging LDLB Imperium as a worthy opponent blocking reinstatement of Necron hegemony of the Galaxy, rather than noisome vermin need to be immediately eradicated.

As for Orks...I have assumed their fair would be extremely poor compared to canon and barely avoiding complete extinction - think final days of Great Crusade and/or M31 to M32 Galaxy before Beast Arises - however, on the other hand they are stemming the tide and managed to subsist through evolving to War of Krork.

In essence, after you confirmed Beast Arises occurred in this universe, I imaged LDLB Orks will be remnants of the Beast - ceaselessly constantly controlled, contained and culled to ensure they never become a threat again.

As such, their position is weaker than canon Orks, but just like Chaos, their weakness is only relative. But it seems LDLB Orks are same as canon and only managed to survive thanks to complacency of the Imperium.

In any case, how Ghazghkull have grown up become more powerful than his canon self? Is he the Second Beast?
LDLB experienced the Beast, but not as anywhere near the threat he was in canon. In a real sense, in LDLB, recent events are not dissimilar to the ones preceding the canon War of the Beast. So for a time the Orks really were broken, as you say. But with the Tyranids and Necrons appearing, enough resources were driven away from containing the Orks that Ghazghkull was missed. And now he's indeed something like a second Beast. He approaches that even in canon, after all.

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Last but not least, how Drukhari have managed to survive and thrive? I have assumed in 41k, they would be driven to near extinction by either Imperium of Man or Imperium Aeldari Secundus. Or perhaps Khaine's Gate finally breached and Chaos flooded the Dark City. Or Necron invaded Commorragh thorough Dolmen Gates and scoured every life in it - although it is less certain whether they able to demolish Dark City if Imperium failed to achieve Drukhari extermination despite of multiple efforts for millenia.

You also said Dark Eldar are even more unstable and fractured than its canon self - thus I suppose Asdrubael Vect either dead or neutralized?
Yeah, I'm thinking that they'll have a different structure, one without Vect. More decentralization, but that somewhat helps because Comorragh is in a certain sense a city under siege. It's extraordinarily difficult to take, and with the Webway the DE have sufficient mobility to raid for supplies, but at the same time there's no real possibility of safety.

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Hmm. Thus in LDLB Great Crusade was concluded in a scant two centuries, just same as canon - I have always thought it is too brief timeperiod to conquer an entire galaxy. Anyhow, ultimately that does not matter - if you decided both Horus and Corax departed Imperium in the late M31, then so it is.

So LDLB rebellion was messier,and Xenos, rebellion and other threats resurgent(even leaving aside Chaos) and Warp Storms were greater, and Scouring was virtually Great Crusade MK II...yeah, now it makes more sense why so many Legions were conspicuously absent during the lengthy and crucial anti-Chaos campaigns such as Iron Cage or Maelstrom Subjugation or Breaking of Salamanders...and yes, if LDLB scouring was the Second Great Crusade to all intent and purpose, it can explain why despite of a myriad of independent scouring campaigns conducted by main force units of three Legions - namely the NL, LW, AL - and other various detachments of other Legions(such as Azure Crusade of the Ultramarines or Pacification of Barbarus Sector of the Death Guard), Milky Way was still in turmoil for centuries (that much could be deduced from Guilliman's monologue) even after the end of Betrayal and Escape.

All in all, while rebellion was much more decentralized than canon, it seems Imperium's dominion of its territory was by far weaker than canon. After all, during Horus Heresy, a third of the galaxy sided with Warmaster, and a myriad of systems and dominions and protectorates declared neutrality or outright seceded from the Imperium - and still, seven years of Scouring was enough to restore semblance of peace and stability to the Galaxy.
Well, it's also that in LDLB the Scouring pretty smoothly transitioned into a war of expansion. The approach I'm going with for LDLB is that the Great Crusade conquered a large splotch of the galaxy, but hardly all, because as you said - 200 years is a short time for galactic conquest, and 7 years an even shorter time for reconquest. With canon, then, the Imperium stabilized after the Scouring in smaller borders than before it, and continued to expand after the Scouring proper; with LDLB there was more of an attempt to finish the Great Crusade.

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Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
Ah, yes. I forgot overall technological base, and technology itself of the LDLB Chaos is on a par with, or even greater, than the Imperium. They also have sorcery. And they can mass produce gene seed from their Dark Forgeworlds. So gene seed stability and compatibility is out of equation, and I conjecture they can control gene seed rejection, too.

However I disagree Chaos has lower Astartes number in average: currently, approximate size of 16 Legions has been presented, and it can be evenly divided into Imperials and Traitors; though most Legions have not been given exact 41k number yet, some Legions are more so than other(so I attached question mark to them - have to resort on conjecture)

Loyalists: 50k?(SW) + 160k (NL) + 140k (DG) + 320k? (UM) + 45k (TS) + 165k? (LW) + 80k (AL) + 110k (GK) = 1070k

Traitors: 110k (DA) + 210k (IW) + 200k? (WS) + 125k (IF) + 200k? (IH) + 200k? (FS) + 100k? (WB) + 60k (RC) = 1205k, if we only count Chaos Legions, then 1005k.

So Imperials have fewer Legionaries than Traitors in totality, and almost even number with Chaos, and like I said, Chaos Legions have greater number in general.

Introduction of EC, BA, SM and RG can change this trend, though. Whilst it is somewhat doubtful that any of these Legions will have 200k+ Astartes, I have got a feeling that LDLB Raven Guard are going to be a huge Legion...(in a similar way as canon Crusade-era Iron Warriors - absolutely insane logistics, mass-production of quality gene-seed and sterile, clinical, scientific process of recruitment, implantation and training regime etc. combined with low casualty rate comparable, if not less, with canon RG)
Are you on alternatehistory.com ? I've hashed out the numbers there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
I see. He is referring Pale Nomads...however, canon Dust Clad have never been honorable sorts - in fact, they were utter pragmatists and unashamed slavers. So I suppose LDLB Nineteenth was significantly different from canon self even before reunion with their Primarch.

And, as for Corax...how he combats? What is his fighting style? Now I significantly doubt whether he will even use same weapon.

Indeed for that matter, is there any Primarch using same weapon and/or fighting style as canon?
Yeah, I'm scratching my head as to what I was thinking while writing that. Possibly I meant to say Ninth instead of Nineteenth? As to the Raven Guard... time will tell, but thanks for the ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
Finally, would you mind if I ask to identity of mysterious red haired woman-god reared and taught Alpharius Omegon? I personally speculate her true nature would be human-C'tan(aka. Iash'uddra, the Endless Swarm) hybrid.
Heh. I'll admit that to me it was mainly a Starcraft reference (although again there's a change I'll make for FFN - instead of 'a fraction of my swarm has been corrupted', 'the ancestors of my swarm have returned', with the Tyranids as ancestors of the Zerg instead of the other way around, so that the timeline makes sense and so that the Tyranids are properly scary). But it's the Alpha Legion, so ambiguity is the order of the day regardless.

Renegades Saga contributions
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...tions-cry.html)
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...s-scarlet.html)
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...lesh-weak.html)
The Emperor has turned to Chaos. The dream of the Imperium has become a nightmare. But Horus and his Coalition stand against the dark, here at the end of time.

Lorgar's Betrayal
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...te-heresy.html)
What was broken has been mended. And what was burned away can never be reforged.
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