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post #11 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-11-15, 11:46 AM
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...Also, the Hive Mind itself exists entirely within the warp...
Do we really know this?

My understanding had been that "the shadow in the warp" was like the water displaced by a large ship. Each living/sentient being has a representation in the warp. The hive mind as a colossal psychic organism has accordingly a huge presence in the warp.

Considering the stories of the hive fleets which encountered one another and immediately fought, that suggests that there is no single hive mind spanning the universe and connecting all the hive fleets, but that each fleet has a separate hive mind.

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post #12 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-11-15, 12:51 PM
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Do we really know this?

My understanding had been that "the shadow in the warp" was like the water displaced by a large ship. Each living/sentient being has a representation in the warp. The hive mind as a colossal psychic organism has accordingly a huge presence in the warp.

Considering the stories of the hive fleets which encountered one another and immediately fought, that suggests that there is no single hive mind spanning the universe and connecting all the hive fleets, but that each fleet has a separate hive mind.
The Swarmlord is able to manifest within any Hive Fleet, suggesting a common link between them all. I tend to think of each hive fleet as having its own dominant minds, represented by the hive tyrants and norn queens. Whether these are rivals with one another across fleets is unclear, but the fact that any of them can summon one particular tyrant when needed proves there is at least some form of contact between them.


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post #13 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-11-15, 07:33 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Serpion5 View Post
The Swarmlord is able to manifest within any Hive Fleet, suggesting a common link between them all. I tend to think of each hive fleet as having its own dominant minds, represented by the hive tyrants and norn queens. Whether these are rivals with one another across fleets is unclear, but the fact that any of them can summon one particular tyrant when needed proves there is at least some form of contact between them.
Or that the Norn Queens share a common blueprint for the Swarmlord, and making a Swarmlord takes so much more resources then even a standard Hive Tyrant to make a creature that intelligent that they don't make it unless they need it. So like, the Swarmlord that fought Calgar is not the same entity that fought Ra, it's a twin or clone. They lead different lives, therefor they're different "people", even though they're genetically the same.

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post #14 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-11-15, 08:16 PM
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Or that the Norn Queens share a common blueprint for the Swarmlord, and making a Swarmlord takes so much more resources then even a standard Hive Tyrant to make a creature that intelligent that they don't make it unless they need it. So like, the Swarmlord that fought Calgar is not the same entity that fought Ra, it's a twin or clone. They lead different lives, therefor they're different "people", even though they're genetically the same.
No, the codex specifies that individual Hive Tyrants can be cloned any number of times if they are slain, seeming to indicate that their minds exist within the Hive Mind collective as individuals and create new bodies as necessary.

The Swarmlord is an example of this, a particularly powerful Hive Tyrant not bound by any specific Hive Fleet that appears apparently as a stress induced reaction where normal adapt and evolve tactics won't work. The Swarmlord was engineered specifically to out-think its enemies, which would suggest that not every Hive Tyrant is capable of this to the same degree.


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post #15 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-11-15, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
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No, the codex specifies that individual Hive Tyrants can be cloned any number of times if they are slain, seeming to indicate that their minds exist within the Hive Mind collective as individuals and create new bodies as necessary.

The Swarmlord is an example of this, a particularly powerful Hive Tyrant not bound by any specific Hive Fleet that appears apparently as a stress induced reaction where normal adapt and evolve tactics won't work. The Swarmlord was engineered specifically to out-think its enemies, which would suggest that not every Hive Tyrant is capable of this to the same degree.
Exactly, they are clones, it's a copy that's it, its DNA is exactly the same, that's all "clone" means. But it's not your DNA that makes you who you are, it's your individual experience that makes you who you are.

The Swarmlord appeared on Macragge early in the battle, just after the initial blows. What stress was the Hive Mind under then? What caused the Hive Mind to look at Marnius and go "OH MY GORD". Macragge would have been a huge pay off for the swarm and the Hive Mind sent the Swarmlord down early to ensure that the job was done. BTW, intelligence is something all synapse creatures have, it's just the Swarmlord has much more.
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post #16 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-12-15, 07:47 AM
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Exactly, they are clones, it's a copy that's it, its DNA is exactly the same, that's all "clone" means. But it's not your DNA that makes you who you are, it's your individual experience that makes you who you are.
I never said otherwise. I just said that the Hive Tyrants and the Swarmlord were all individual minds within the swarm. They can create new bodies at will using the resources of the fleet, but they are still each of their own mind. Meaning there is only one Swarmlord, and it transcends Hive Fleets rather than being bound to a single fleet as other tyrants appear to be.

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The Swarmlord appeared on Macragge early in the battle, just after the initial blows. What stress was the Hive Mind under then? What caused the Hive Mind to look at Marnius and go "OH MY GORD". Macragge would have been a huge pay off for the swarm and the Hive Mind sent the Swarmlord down early to ensure that the job was done.
The Swarmlord appeared because Maccragge was the first true resistance this galaxy was able to offer. By this stage the Imperium had realized there was a genuine new threat and acted accordingly. The space strategy was sound, and the Swarmlord was not needed elsewhere at this point either. It made perfect sense for the Swarmlord to be at Maccragge, but in more recent invasions it has had to prioritize.

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BTW, intelligence is something all synapse creatures have, it's just the Swarmlord has much more.
This is not necessarily true. While all synapse creatures are indeed capable of channeling the Hive Mind's will, there are varying degrees of intelligence and autonomy. Warriors for example have a weaker influence, hence why they operate in large broods. A tyrant is stronger, and the Swarmlord is stronger still.


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post #17 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-12-15, 10:03 AM Thread Starter
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I just said that the Hive Tyrants and the Swarmlord were all individual minds within the swarm. They can create new bodies at will using the resources of the fleet, but they are still each of their own mind. Meaning there is only one Swarmlord, and it transcends Hive Fleets rather than being bound to a single fleet as other tyrants appear to be.
And that's the point of contention, excuse me if I like a little science in my science fiction, of course 40k can be described Lord of the Rings with guns. The paragraph just means no matter how many times you kill it, they are just going to replace with one just like it. In the Swarm there is no such thing as individual consciousness, the Swarmlord is indistinguishable from any other Hive Tyrant, Old One Eye from any other Carnifex, Deathleaper from any other Lictor, etc.

"The majority of Tyranid organisms have no distinct minds as a human would understand it, having been created to perform a single task to the exclusion of all else." - Tyranid codex

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The Swarmlord appeared because Maccragge was the first true resistance this galaxy was able to offer. By this stage the Imperium had realized there was a genuine new threat and acted accordingly. The space strategy was sound, and the Swarmlord was not needed elsewhere at this point either. It made perfect sense for the Swarmlord to be at Maccragge, but in more recent invasions it has had to prioritize.
That's not a stress response, that's the Hive Mind saying "ok, you, you, and you".
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post #18 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-12-15, 10:20 AM Thread Starter
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This is not necessarily true. While all synapse creatures are indeed capable of channeling the Hive Mind's will, there are varying degrees of intelligence and autonomy. Warriors for example have a weaker influence, hence why they operate in large broods. A tyrant is stronger, and the Swarmlord is stronger still.
Warriors can still be autonomous, Tyranid Prime. They hunt as a team, teamwork is a classic sign of an intelligent creature. There is a story of a Warboss that had a bad temper, the Warriors drove the Hormaguants up and pull them back until the Warboss loaded all his Boyz on Trukz to chase the Warriors, them Venomthropes and Lictors assassinated the Warboss. That was the work of Warriors showing that they are still vastly intelligent.
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post #19 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-12-15, 11:50 PM
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And that's the point of contention, excuse me if I like a little science in my science fiction, of course 40k can be described Lord of the Rings with guns. The paragraph just means no matter how many times you kill it, they are just going to replace with one just like it. In the Swarm there is no such thing as individual consciousness, the Swarmlord is indistinguishable from any other Hive Tyrant, Old One Eye from any other Carnifex, Deathleaper from any other Lictor, etc.

"The majority of Tyranid organisms have no distinct minds as a human would understand it, having been created to perform a single task to the exclusion of all else." - Tyranid codex
This is codex generalization, and you have overlooked use of the word majority there.

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Warriors can still be autonomous, Tyranid Prime. They hunt as a team, teamwork is a classic sign of an intelligent creature. There is a story of a Warboss that had a bad temper, the Warriors drove the Hormaguants up and pull them back until the Warboss loaded all his Boyz on Trukz to chase the Warriors, them Venomthropes and Lictors assassinated the Warboss. That was the work of Warriors showing that they are still vastly intelligent.
This does not necessarily mean a demonstration of intelligence. It could simply be warriors accessing memories of past encounters of a similar nature and applying it to the present. Remember that autonomy aside, all synapse creatures do have access to the Hive Mind's collective knowledge. This doesn't really prove one way or the other.


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post #20 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-13-15, 12:56 AM
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