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post #71 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-20-09, 04:49 PM
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Certainly Forlindon and Himling. Whether Harlindon was really part of Beleriand is pretty difficult to determine.

If you look at the relative positions of Himling, Himring, Mt Rerir and the rest of the Ered Luin, you realise that the Gulf of Lune is quite a long way south on the Silmarillion map, not around the middle (Nogrod and Belegost, for example, are a long way north of the Gulf of Lune, and I reckon at least 5 of the rivers of Ossiriand are in Forlindon).

"Well it's Forty-one Thousand Nine Hundred Sixty-nine OK -
Gotta war across the Milky Way - "
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post #72 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-20-09, 06:51 PM
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Looking at the maps in the Silmarillion and UT, I'd have thought that the Gulf of Lhun was about where Belegost was (wasn't Belegost destroyed at the end of the First Age wen Beleriand sunk?).

Looking at the maps, Himring is roughly in line with a spur of mountains/hills that come off the main chain of Ered Luin, as is it's Third Age counterpart Himling. South of this, the Ered Luin is farily straight, with a slight curving toward the East. At Belegost and Norgrod, the chain has a sharp turn East and south of this the chain arcs from Norgrod to the West and back again on the Silmarillion map of Beleriand. In the UT map of Middle-earth, the Ered Luin follow a similar slope southeast from that spure to their incarnation on the Silmarillion map. Looking at the southern chain in that range on the UT map you can see a sharp turn in the range where it meets the Gulf.

To me, this would suggest that Harlindon is roughly where Ossiriand is and Forlindon is where Thargelion is. Of course, I could be wrong, and I'm not 100% cirtain of this interpretaion.
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post #73 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-20-09, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Dînadan View Post
... this would suggest that Harlindon is roughly where Ossiriand is and Forlindon is where Thargelion is. Of course, I could be wrong, and I'm not 100% cirtain of this interpretaion.
Well, I'm not 100% sure of mine either - as I said, it's difficult to determine.

The shape of the Ered Luin on the two maps tends to support your theory (indeed the theory I ascribed to for quite a while). The direction of the East-West Road through the Shire also may point to Belegost and Nogrod being 'under' the Gulf of Lune.

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Looking at the maps in the Silmarillion and UT, I'd have thought that the Gulf of Lhun was about where Belegost was (wasn't Belegost destroyed at the end of the First Age wen Beleriand sunk?)...
The Tale of the Years relates for "c. 40SA" that "...Dwarves, leaving their old cities in the Ered Luin...". What old cities are not stated. They are either un-named and unmentioned cities, in which case they could be in any part of the Ered Luin (or anywhere else), or they are the only named cities of the Ered Luin, ie Nogrod and Belegost. If they were Nogrod and Belegost, then those cities weren't destroyed and sunk 40 years previously.

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... Looking at the maps, Himring is roughly in line with a spur of mountains/hills that come off the main chain of Ered Luin, as is it's Third Age counterpart Himling...
Yes, this is Mount Rerir that I mentioned in my earlier post. According to the map in UT, the distance from the middle of the island of Himling to the point where the Mount Rerir spur diverges from the main chain is around 150 miles. The distance from the point of divergence to the middle of the Gulf of Lune is around 300 miles - in other words, the Gulf of Lune is twice as far from the Mount Rerir spur as Himling is.

If we look at the Silmarillion map, and apply the same scheme (measure the distance from the Mt Rerir spur to Himring, then double it for the Gulf of Lune), that would put the Gulf of Lune where the River Duilwen is, in the south of Ossiriand.

In other words, Nogrod and Belegost are about the same distance south of the Mt Rerir spur as Himring is west of it; so find the distance fom the spur to Himling on the Unfinished Tales map, and head the same distance south to find Nogrod and Belegost.

Nogrod and Belegost, under Mt Dolmed, would on this reckoning be on the Unfinished Tales map where the double-peaked mountain stands out to the west of the main range, slightly south of where the river of Forlindon flows down, at the top of the central/southern range of woods.

This would allow them to not be underwater and the Dwarves to continue living there for another 40 years.

It would also mean that Beleriand is only about half the size we think it is, and attached to Forlindon but not necessarily Harlindon.

But, as I've said, it's difficult. Neither explaination is entirely convincing. The Dwarf cities might be different cities. The East-West Road might kink north. The position of Himling might be wrong. The line of the hills might be out on the map.

I trust the position of Himling but not the line of the hills. If you trust the line of the hills, that's fine, but Himling's in the wrong place. I trust that the entry refers to Nogrod and Belegost, not un-named other cities, and think the road turns. But that's just about plausability not fact. "Other interpretations are possible".

"Well it's Forty-one Thousand Nine Hundred Sixty-nine OK -
Gotta war across the Milky Way - "
Iggius Popiscus and the Stoogii, "41,969"



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post #74 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-20-09, 10:27 PM
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To be honest I don't trust either the hills or the position of Himling. On the UT map the Mountains are too vauge to take an acurate reading if you ask me, and any power that could sink Beleriand and could knock a hole in a mountain range could feasably shift land marks such as Himring. Not to mention the fact that the sinking of Numenor, removal of Valinor from the world and the turning of Arda from a plane into a sphere is bound to have had some impact on things and skewed distances (under stereographic projection, the distances on a sphere between two points are not the same as if those points are projected onto a plane, so the discrepancies, if any exist, could potentially be due to the map of Beleriand being of a flat world, while that of Middle-earth is of a spherical one projected onto a plane and then corrected so that the landmarks are not skewed).

Ultimately I don't think we can say for cirtain - niether theory is satisfactory when compared to the other, even if both sound reasonable on their own. I'd say that it's probably fairly safe to say that Belegost and Norgrod are the most northern point that the Gulf could possibly be. The southern most on the other hand...I don't think that it could be much beyond the bottom of the Beleriand map, but that's personal opinion. :/ I guess I should go re-read the Silmarillion soon and see if I can find any distances quoted for other landmarks and see if they can be applied to the map.
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post #75 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-21-09, 12:03 PM
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I've found it very hard to get a fix on distances in Beleriand. There's no scale on the map, obviously, but I haven't found any distance references in the text either. To be fair, I haven't gonr through the whole of the Silmarillion and UT to make notes on every aspect of geography - maybe I should have done.

But, as I said in the first post on this, it's uncertain; and both theories have problems and require certain assumptions. For what it's worth, I assume that the Silmarillion map is accurate, and the only thing I need to regard as inaccurate is the line of the Ered Luin in Forlindon. I don't need to explain where the Dwarves were living or why we've never heard of the other cities, and don't need to posit the moving of islands or their missnaming. Occam's Razor allows me to fit the pieces together with the minimum of added complications ("the mountains are wrong in UT" is it in this theory).

But, again, it's not certain. If you find any references to distances in miles in either the Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales, do let me know, I'll be happy to be part of any attempt to settle this one way or another.

Love the idea that it's either due to the projection or the 'new' curvature of the earth. Personally, I read those passages as being 'mythmaking' myself, but that's not the point really.

"Well it's Forty-one Thousand Nine Hundred Sixty-nine OK -
Gotta war across the Milky Way - "
Iggius Popiscus and the Stoogii, "41,969"


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post #76 of 77 (permalink) Old 08-06-12, 12:06 AM
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The Silmarillion is a fantastic novel in its own right, and in my opinion a must-read for any serious LOTR fans. It puts the events of LOTR into a vast, historical context and adds enormous depth to an already rich, complex universe.

When you understand the massively long lineage that Aragorn derives from, you can really appreciate how he's carrying the weight of the human world on his shoulders in some respects. You can understand how determined he is to make up for the weakness of Isildur and the race of men as a whole, when you read about Numenor and its fall.

You see an interesting (and for some people) a completely unanticipated link between him and Elrond, too.

All of that is just the tip of the Iceberg. The Epic battles of the First-Age are fantastic with all their glory and tragedy. There are Gods, Dragons, the first Elves and Men to read about. Sauron's boss Melkor (then Morgoth) and the main antagonist of the book, makes a loooong, frightening and vital appearance. The earlier incarnation of Sauron (pre-ring and giant Cat's eye form) features heavily in one of the chapters, and he was far more interesting back then.

And so much more besides...

All in all, a fantastic read.

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post #77 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-05-12, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vociferous Noun View Post

When you understand the massively long lineage that Aragorn derives from, you can really appreciate how he's carrying the weight of the human world on his shoulders in some respects. You can understand how determined he is to make up for the weakness of Isildur and the race of men as a whole, when you read about Numenor and its fall.
.
This is what I found so fascinating about the Silmarillion.
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