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post #21 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-12-09, 08:35 PM
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the only person that would be more powerful in the 3rd age than the 1st would indeed be Galadriel,
What about Elrond?
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post #22 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-12-09, 08:40 PM
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him too...did he ever have one of the three Elven rings, or was it Cirdan, Galadriel and Gandalf?

he may have been more powerful, but in which manner i don't know. and maybe Cirdan for that matter, but he barely appeared in the War of the Ring.
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post #23 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-12-09, 08:42 PM
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Elrond had a Ring. Celebrimor forged the Three, gave one to Galadriel and two to Gil-Galad. Gil-Galad gave one to Elrond and the other to Cirdan. Cirdan then passed his onto Gandalf.
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post #24 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-12-09, 09:02 PM
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Inquisitor, you can conclude what you like, it doesn't have to based on anything as trivial as evidence. What you can't do, without challenge, is present your belief as fact.

I don't care if you think Tuor was 90 feet tall and could eat mountains. I do care if you claim it's true. What you're expressing is opinion. That's all.

Of course, mine is opinion too. But mine is based on textual references, and where we disagree about interpretation I've tried to where and why.

You however have boiled your argument down to "there aren't as many elves as there used to be, therefore 1st Age heroes could kick the ass of 3rd Age heroes" which doesn't make any sense.

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post #25 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-12-09, 09:53 PM
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You however have boiled your argument down to "there aren't as many elves as there used to be, therefore 1st Age heroes could kick the ass of 3rd Age heroes" which doesn't make any sense.
erm, no.

my argument boiled down is that we don't see people in the 3rd Age kick ass in the same way as the 1st, that's why 3rd Age Middle Earth denizens appear weaker.

just because some beings are older in the 3rd age doesn't mean that they are more powerful, at least as it pertains to individuals. maybe they don't care to be more powerful and be involved to what happens in Middle Earth.

like i said:

Quote:
can't think of many displays of power in the War of the Ring that equal the displays of power in the Silmarillion.
and this is some thing that pertains to everyone in the 3rd Age.

i mean, Ar-Pharazon captured Melkor. I didn't see Aragorn capture a god-like being that had been around since the creation of Middle of Earth. is Aragorn able to do the same?

i don't know, maybe. but i'm not going to say that he's capable of completing a feat like that until he does it, or some thing equivalent.

and that's just one example of what i'm trying to get across.

also, i never even said the beings in the 3rd Age are proven to be 100% weaker than their predecessors. i said:

Quote:
meaning that someone(s) who fights amies of dragons, Balrogs, and has the balls to fight a Vala comes across as more powerful than someone who fights a tribe of Orcs. yeah, the logic is skewed, but there it is, and that why (again, IMO) that 3rd Age Middle Earthers appear weaker.
so yeah, you could be right. and i'm assuming you're counting events, places, etc. as evidence that i haven't even considered, but i haven't read LotR since the films came out in theater, and it's been a year since i've read the Silmarillion.

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Of course, mine is opinion too. But mine is based on textual references
such as?
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post #26 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-12-09, 11:00 PM
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... the power of the heroes and villains of the third age of Middle Earth was much lesser than those of the First Age.

... they bred with 'Lesser Men', causing the 'pure' blood of Numenor to weaken over time.

that's why Elendil, Isildur (and the Numenorians in general), and their immediate relative descendants lived for hundreds of years while Aragorn lived to be less than 200 years old; i know he was in his 80s during the War of the Ring, and he ruled for 80 years, but not sure on that either...
I added the bold of course.

None of that says "in my opinion" and none of it says "it appears to be the case that". In other words, you're stating your opinion as fact, opinions for which you offer no evidence; you later admit you aren't comparing like with like, in that there are no similar events to compare, but you compare them anyway.

BTW, your opinions about Aragorn that you deduce above are wrong.

Among the textual evidence I refer to is the statement that the breeding of Numenorians with the people of Rhovanion does not hasten the decline of Gondor - references, again, in the Appendices to LotR, appendix A iv, page 301 in my edition though that may be of little help. I didn't supply a page ref before because I have no idea if you have the same edition as me.

Aragorn is described as being "more like to Elendil than any before him" in 'The Rings of Power and the Third Age', p 365 of The Silmarillion.

Aragorn lives to more than 200, in fact; born in TA2931, his 88th birthday is spent in the eaves of Fangorn with Gimli and Legolas; Aragorn dies in FA120, which equates to SR1541, which would be TA3141. In other words, he dies on his 210th birthday - from LotR Appendix B 'the Tale of the Years' - The Third Age, and Later Events Concerning the Members of the Fellowship of the Ring, pp464-477.

This tallies quite nicely with the allotment of the extra life given to the Numenorians after the end of the First Age of 'thrice the span of mortal men' (Appendix A, p382); the Numenoreans, from being like other men (of the First Age) "increased in staure both of mind and body" (Akallabeth, p314).

So it was in the Second Age, not the First, that the {Dun}edain acheived their mighty stature and power.

Saying we don't see Aragorn do what Ar-Pharazon did is no argument. We don't see Ar-Pharazon walking, eating or drinking, unlike Aragorn. Are you telling me he couldn't do these things?

You argue that Galadriel 'may have decided' to be weaker in the Third Age than she did in the First. Except, there is no evidence of this. On the contrary, she both has a Ring of Power in the Third Age, and has been one of the prime oponents of Sauron, as she explains in the Mirror of Galadriel, Fellowship of the Ring 463-474. I think *unlikely* that she choses to be weaker.

I'm afraid that I just don't buy your argument that there's any personal weakening. There's no evidence for and a fair amount of evidence against.

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post #27 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-12-09, 11:41 PM Thread Starter
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i always thought that Elendil was longed lived because he chose a mortal life, as opposed Earendil who chose an eternal life.

or am i mixing those guys with someone else?
those would be Elros and Elrond. Elros chose a mortal life and from him and his line come the Numenorians, meanwhile Elrond chose an immortal life, to be an elf.

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post #28 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-12-09, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Red Orc View Post
I added the bold of course.
and omitted this part, what i said later in reply:

Quote:
i'll take you word on this, but i've never found it in my reading but it has been a while. i thought that the Numenoreans were rewarded with an island and extended life for their support in the wars of Beleriand.

and i always thought that Elendil was longed lived because he chose a mortal life, as opposed Earendil who chose an eternal life.
so bringing this up as your counter argument doesn't work; can't you tell that i'm questioning what i posted previously as wrong? i never discredited what you said, or even tried. 'i thought' does not equal 'it is'.

and if i posted some thing as fact in error, then just point that out. telling me my point of view fails on things i remember incorrectly (after i admit to remembering incorrectly) doesn't really help the discussion.

Quote:
one of that says "in my opinion" and none of it says "it appears to be the case that". In other words, you're stating your opinion as fact, opinions for which you offer no evidence; you later admit you aren't comparing like with like, in that there are no similar events to compare, but you compare them anyway.
i understood the whole discussion the be a matter of opinions based on books that have been read, so i didn't think there was a need to post that.
Among the textual evidence I refer to is the statement that the breeding of Numenorians with the people of Rhovanion does not hasten the decline of Gondor[/quote]
i thought that we had gotten past this point...

Quote:
Aragorn is described as being "more like to Elendil than any before him" in 'The Rings of Power and the Third Age', p 365 of The Silmarillion.
but how? does it tell us how he's more like Elendil? what if they have the same beard and eyes?

Quote:
In other words, he dies on his 210th birthday
and thanks for clarifying this; no sarcasm meant. i wasn't sure on this at all.

Quote:
Saying we don't see Aragorn do what Ar-Pharazon did is no argument. We don't see Ar-Pharazon walking, eating or drinking, unlike Aragorn. Are you telling me he couldn't do these things?
i don't know, are eating, walking, and drinking actions of might? you're trying to tell me that there is no weakening, but none of the characters do things that characters in the 1st/2nd Age do.

i'm trying to tell you that yeah, 3rd Age character might be that powerful, but don't come across that way.

feels like you're confused as to what i'm saying. the question raised (or so i thought) was that Mid-Earthers in the 3rd Age are weaker than Mid-Earthers in the 1st and 2nd Age. my point of view is 'they come across that way, but i'm not sure; i'm not sure what they're really capable of'.

Quote:
You argue that Galadriel 'may have decided' to be weaker in the Third Age than she did in the First.
close. but i think we're defining power differently; yes, she's got one of the rings, and she's older than mountains, but she doesn't do much in the 3rd Age to help out the Fellowship. this relative disinterest to me makes her come across as weak.

she does give them gifts that are helpful in their cause, but she's not pro active beyond that.

and if i'm missing any thing else she does, just tell me.

she's an opponent of Sauron, but how? does she throw down with him or order minions to fight his minions?

Quote:
I'm afraid that I just don't buy your argument that there's any personal weakening. There's no evidence for and a fair amount of evidence against.
i never said in absolute tems there was any personal weakness; never have.

to quote me (again):

Quote:
also, i never even said the beings in the 3rd Age are proven to be 100% weaker than their predecessors. i said:
Quote:
meaning that someone(s) who fights amies of dragons, Balrogs, and has the balls to fight a Vala comes across as more powerful than someone who fights a tribe of Orcs. yeah, the logic is skewed, but there it is, and that why (again, IMO) that 3rd Age Middle Earthers appear weaker.
and you keep quoting 'textural evidence' that doesn't prove your point of view. for one, i never doubted what you presented about the lineage of the Numenoreans.

for two, the only thing that you mentioned concerning the power of a 3rd Age denizen is Galadriel: ok, she's got a ring, she's old. but hardly did a thing (i'm sure you'll correct me if i'm wrong) in the 3rd Age to help in the War of the Ring. what about the average is he as powerful as one his Numenorean ancestors?

granted, Galadriel, Elrond, and others i'm sure had the potential to do great and powerful things in the 3rd Age, but we don't see them do it, so IMHO, that makes them seem weak.

good conversation Red Orc, stimulates the mind. and with no sarcasm meant, thanks for that.

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post #29 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-13-09, 12:14 AM
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him too...did he ever have one of the three Elven rings, or was it Cirdan, Galadriel and Gandalf?

It was Elrond, Gladreil and Cirdan (sapphire, diamond and ruby respectively) however Cirdan gave his ring to Gandalf cos he knew Gandalf was in for a rough ride and thought it could help. The thing I never understood is that wh didn't Gandalf put Frodo on an eagle and fly to mount doom to destroy it. Judging from the final battle it doesn't take long for the Eagle's the fly to Mount Doom, the ring could be destroyed before Sauron could do anything to stop them. And if you didn't understand the Elves are weaker in the 3rd age than the 1st, therefore Gladreil is also weaker (not fighting wise she has always been shit). The power of the Elves was always to be a tempory thing because every generation the power of the valar is lessened, that is why Gladreil is so powerful cos she came from an age were the power of the valar was still strong (parentage also helps). From the above post the main role Gladreil plays as enemy of Sauron is a ward against the evils of the world, the very nature of the Elves and their rings of power counteract evil. And Gladreil also holds councel with Elrond before the elves go to helms deep, and in the book does the weird pick frodo up thing in Mordor, altough he may be imagining her. I personally do not understand this whole thing because she was never a fighting person so throughout all the ages pretty much just told others what to do.

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post #30 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-13-09, 12:19 AM
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this is a sensible conclusion, but unfortunately the power of the heroes and villains of the third age of Middle Earth was much lesser than those of the First Age.

Galadriel and Elrond hint to this in the LotR books, with the passing of the Elves into the Undying Lands. Galadriel herself even mentions that she will diminish (after being tempted by the One Ring, IIRC).

also, the Gondorians are the descendants of the Island of Numeror. the Numenorians founded Gondor and Arnor. Eventually, due to human fallacy and evil powers, Arnor ceased to exist as a nation until Aragorn became king of Gondor and Arnor (the Re United Kingdom, IIRC??? not sure...). the only thing left of them were the Rangers of Arnor, the people that Aragorn came from.

Gondor itself was weak by the War of the Ring, but even then potent despite its weakness. After the Numenorians fled the sinking of their island and founded their kingdoms, they bred with 'Lesser Men', causing the 'pure' blood of Numenor to weaken over time.

that's why Elendil, Isildur (and the Numenorians in general), and their immediate relative descendants lived for hundreds of years while Aragorn lived to be less than 200 years old; i know he was in his 80s during the War of the Ring, and he ruled for 80 years, but not sure on that either.

not even Sauron, prime bad guy of the 3rd Age was as powerful as Melkor. Melkor was one of the Valar created by Eru Illuvatar (the 'prime' god of Middle Earth) to make the song of creation with the other Valar. Sauron was a servant of Melkor (a Maia, i think) who took over his master's role after Melkor was vanished 'beyond the Void'.

just for comparison: in the 1st/2nd Ages of Middle Earth, Dwarves, Elves, and Men united to fight ARMIES of Balrogs. the 3rd Age only had one Balrog, and look how much trouble it caused.

here, endeth the lesson
So, are you saying that you're going back on all of this, and accepting that there's no evidence for it, which is what I said in the beginning, when this conversation after all was about whether 1st and 2nd Age characters could whoop anyone from the 3rd Ages arse? Because if you are going on back on it, we have nothing left to argue about.

If however you continue to claim that it's true that 1st and 2nd Age characters could whoop the arses of any Third Age characters, I'll say again, where's the evidence?

You argue that people are diminished in power, but then that societies are diminished in power, but then that we can't tell because we're not seeing like for like, but then that that they might be powerful but we don't see it, which is the same as not being powerful...

It comes down to a fairly simple question... where do you get your evidence that people in the First and Second Ages could whoop the arses of Third Age characters? This was, in the beginning, the point on which you disagreed with my post - a post in which I had been careful to say "I don't see any evidence", not "this is what happened... I have spoken" which is what you did in the post I've quoted above.

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Gotta war across the Milky Way - "
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