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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-13-09, 11:29 PM Thread Starter
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Default 2500 points High Elves - Brand new to fantasy

I am trying to decide between a Vampire counts or a High Elves army, and having played 40k for years, I have only a basic understanding of how Fantasy actually functions. I have heard that elite units are typically better than innumerable hordes when fighting, and I like the look and feel of a high elves army that playes to that. I know I donít have any magic in the army really, but it seems as though the vast majority of spells are really not that effective compared to a strong CC phase and hopefully with high M I should be able to get into combat before there is enough damage done.

Lord

Prince
Base, Great Weapon, Dragon, Bow of the Seafarer, Dragonscale Shield, Talisman of Loec

Heroes

Caradryan

Korhil

Core

Lothern Sea Guard
21x Sea Guard, Sea Master, Standard Bearer, Musician

Lothern Sea Guard
21x Sea Guard, Sea Master, Standard Bearer, Musician

Lothern Sea Guard
21 Sea Guard, Sea Master, Standard Bearer, Musician

Special

Sword Masters of Hoeth
9 Sword Masters, Bladelord, Musician, Standard Bearer, Elyrion Banner

Sword Masters of Hoeth
9 Sword Masters, Bladelord, Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Sorcery

White Lions of Chrase
15 White Lions, Guardian, Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Arcane Protection

White Lions of Chrase
15 White Lions, Guardian, Musician, Standard Bearer

Rare

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Repeater Bolt Thrower

2500 pts total

I would put Caradryan in the middle of the army with the White Lions, the Prince and Korhil with a unit of Sword Masters on the Flanks keeping the Sea Guard back to form a block back with the repeater bolt throwers. I would march the Lions right into the center of the enemyís army and then charge the swordmen into the flanks of whatever they are attacking.

On turn 3 or so the Sea guard switch from being fire support with the bolt throwers to moving forward to finish off whatever is left. The bolt throwers will mainly be serving as anti cavalry/skirmish weapons leaving the infantry to the Elites. I figure that even if I march the lions into a really hard unit striking first with S6 weapons plus causing fear should put the enemy on the back foot especially since whatever kills Caradryan pretty much dies anyway. Plus the lot of them are stubborn. The sword masters should in turn take a decent toll whether they wind up supporting the Lions as they chop through a horde of nothings or counter charging an elite unit. The Seafarer bow should also help chop up large units since itís a BS 6 bolt thrower.

Finally I would expect the sea guardís arrows and the special units to have softened up the opposition sufficiently for them to be able to engage successfully with all 3 ranks of 7 striking first and engaging pretty hewn up units after the specialists are mostly wiped out.

What is the average size for a fantasy game by the way?


All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-14-09, 05:55 PM
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that looks like a solid list, but i play dwarfs, so i may be talking out of my bum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triangulum View Post
What is the average size for a fantasy game by the way?
now thats a can of worms!
realy, it varies quite a bit, from 500 through to 3000(like 40k). i like to focus on 2000pt armies, some like to go 2250 for that extra boost, others like to keep away lords at 1500, whilst a friend of mine loves realy large games at 3000pts. in my experiance, you can get 2000pts done in 1 and a half hours to 2 hours, depending on circumstances.

humm, true. This is yet again proof the Orks are smarter the Elves.-Micklez
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-14-09, 09:39 PM
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ah, I love the fact you took 3 bolt throwers, excellant choice, they really are the Kings among ranged weapons, 4 S6 shots or a single S10 shot, if you aim all three at a single unit (say, Chaos Maurders) you can easily reduce their ranks in a single round of shooting, I also like the fact you chose 3 units of sea guard, a good solid core.

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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-14-09, 10:05 PM
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Pretty solid list with the Sea Guard and Bolt Throwers. The core of any High Elf army is going to be your troops, so focus on making them as badass as possible. Bolt Throwers and some of the best artillery pieces in FB, simply because of their ability to fire either a single high-strength shot or multiple-low strength shots.

Seems like a pretty solid strategy too. I assume you're putting your Prince on a Star Dragon, which is good for Terror-Bombing and flank charging units held up by your Lions and Swordmasters.

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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-15-09, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triangulum View Post
I am trying to decide between a Vampire counts or a High Elves army, and having played 40k for years, I have only a basic understanding of how Fantasy actually functions. I have heard that elite units are typically better than innumerable hordes when fighting, and I like the look and feel of a high elves army that playes to that. I know I donít have any magic in the army really, but it seems as though the vast majority of spells are really not that effective compared to a strong CC phase and hopefully with high M I should be able to get into combat before there is enough damage done.

You're going off a lot of assumptions here. Saying magic isn't a big deal is ludicrous! Check out some of the spells that can be thrown around, and you'll see. I know I love to see people playing High Elves (or at least not complaining about them for some reason or another), but the Vampire Counts can boast one amazing magic phase; mainly it's about buffing the hordes in some way rather than dishing out damage, unlike the potential of the High Elves.

High Elves have access to all 8 of the main lores, plus High Magic. Each Lore has its own purpose: Lore of Metal, for instance, is great against anything with an absurd Armor Save, while Lore of Death is great at hurting Leadership Roles and such.

As for your idea on Elites being better than Hordes, that's up for debate. I've been mathhammering a bit and have found that it would take a considerably elite unit to shut down a unit of Empire State Troops, who react much like a horde army but a bit better. They generate a lot of Static Combat Resolution (like have a lot more guys than you do, having a bigger formation, having a banner, and so forth), while the High Elf elite units can't generate as much since they focus on getting kills for their Combat Resolution.
Point Being: It's really a matter of personal preference here. If you want any more assistance, just ask!



Lord

Prince
Base, Great Weapon, Dragon, Bow of the Seafarer, Dragonscale Shield, Talisman of Loec

Bow of the Seafarer is nice, but you could just save some points and put the Lord on a Great Eagle or something smaller. You have him kitted out for Long-Range combat, after all. Really, though, the true power of the High Elf Lord comes in Combat Support, where he can lend some help to the already awesome infantry in some way.

The Stereotypical High Elf Lord on Star Dragon kit is as such:
-Armor of Caledor
-Vambrances of Defense
-Star Lance or Sword of Might
You'll have a beefy combat character here. No shooting, like you may want, but the dragon will be all the better utilized.

If you want a Shooty High Elf Lord, go for something like this:
-Bow of the Seafarer
-Dragon Armor, Shield, maybe a Great Weapon
-Great Eagle
This way, you won't sacrifice any of your shooty-ness, and will still do decent in combat without using boatloads of points.


Heroes

Caradryan

Korhil

These guys are great. No comments here, at least not yet...

Core

Lothern Sea Guard
21x Sea Guard, Sea Master, Standard Bearer, Musician

Lothern Sea Guard
21x Sea Guard, Sea Master, Standard Bearer, Musician

Lothern Sea Guard
21 Sea Guard, Sea Master, Standard Bearer, Musician

Not a bad idea here, though they get so expensive so fast it'll make your head spin. Based on your strategy, you could just bump these guys down to Archers to save some points.

As is, you'll want to keep these guys rather close to the rest of your army, who will already be out-numbered and likely out-maneuvered. Otherwise, you just let all those guys go to waste unsupported!


Special

Sword Masters of Hoeth
9 Sword Masters, Bladelord, Musician, Standard Bearer, Elyrion Banner

Sword Masters of Hoeth
9 Sword Masters, Bladelord, Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Sorcery

I doubt you'd need banners for these guys. Especially not the Banner of Sorcery. I'll get to that later.

You should probably drop the Standard Bearers and the Bladelords. They probably won't be worth it. An extra attack for that many more points? Put another Sword Master in there! Same with the Banner; that +1 CR will be better put in another body. The Musicians can stay, just in case, if you'd rather. I usually take these guys naked, and they do fine if I keep them protected with spells. In your case, you'll have problems. Keep scrolling down for my input on that!


White Lions of Chrase
15 White Lions, Guardian, Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Arcane Protection

White Lions of Chrase
15 White Lions, Guardian, Musician, Standard Bearer

Mmm, White Lions. These guys are amazing. You should consider giving one unit the Lion Standard. It's rather befitting of their reputation, and will allow them to more easily decimate the nasty monsters that are running around.

Put Korhil in the unit with the Banner of Arcane Protection, and Caradryn in the other unit. Magic will almost certainly not bother these units!
Plus, their killy-ness would go through the roof.


Rare

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Repeater Bolt Thrower

I can never say anything bad about these. Although I should give you this: Get an eagle or two! Your infantry can't afford to be out-maneuvered! If you can March-Block the enemy's fast movers so that you can have some more time to get into position, the better for you. That should increase your chances in combat many times over.

2500 pts total

I would put Caradryan in the middle of the army with the White Lions, the Prince and Korhil with a unit of Sword Masters on the Flanks keeping the Sea Guard back to form a block back with the repeater bolt throwers. I would march the Lions right into the center of the enemyís army and then charge the swordmen into the flanks of whatever they are attacking.

I don't know why you want your Prince running around on his own and snipe things (something your Bolt Throwers will probably do just fine with), but you won't be able to put a flier in a unit; if you wanted the Prince to support your units, you'd be better off leaving him off a Monstrous Mount.

Korhil belongs in a unit; White Lions or Lothern Sea Guard would really optimize his potential; Sword Masters would only act as supporting units, so you want to keep that unit as cheap as possible.

Your Lothern Sea Guard are too valuable to keep off the combat lines. Keep them with the rest of your force! As I have said, Korhil will make one of those units an absolute combat monster!


On turn 3 or so the Sea guard switch from being fire support with the bolt throwers to moving forward to finish off whatever is left. The bolt throwers will mainly be serving as anti cavalry/skirmish weapons leaving the infantry to the Elites. I figure that even if I march the lions into a really hard unit striking first with S6 weapons plus causing fear should put the enemy on the back foot especially since whatever kills Caradryan pretty much dies anyway. Plus the lot of them are stubborn. The sword masters should in turn take a decent toll whether they wind up supporting the Lions as they chop through a horde of nothings or counter charging an elite unit. The Seafarer bow should also help chop up large units since itís a BS 6 bolt thrower.

White Lions don't cause Fear, my friend! And you want Caradryn to avoid dying; he's not cheap, after all!

You will want your Sword Masters to support your main infantry blocks, though. You won't regret that decision.


Finally I would expect the sea guardís arrows and the special units to have softened up the opposition sufficiently for them to be able to engage successfully with all 3 ranks of 7 striking first and engaging pretty hewn up units after the specialists are mostly wiped out.

If you keep your Sea Guard back that long, they won't have any units left alive to go up and support!! Plus I think you're overestimating the effectiveness of Elven Shooting. It's good, but not that good. If you wanted a strong Shooting Phase, use Archers instead, and bring in some Shadow Warriors. Otherwise, just use it to whittle down the weaker units.

What is the average size for a fantasy game by the way?

See the replies above. Odds are, it'll be around 2000pts.
My biggest grief with this list is simple:

YOU HAVE NO MAGIC PHASE

You even brought the Banner of Sorcery when you have no mages whatsoever!
What you really should do, Triangulum, is bring in a Level 1 Mage with two Dispel Scrolls using High Magic. At least that way, you have some overall magic Defense. Don't get me wrong, Magic Resistance is amazing, but that only applies to select units. You need that mage to give you something to fall back on in your opponent's magic phase.

Of course, if you and your gaming group don't care for Magic, don't heed what I'm saying. In fact, if you ever see me in person, you can bash me on the head!

Otherwise, though, the list as-is isn't bad. I think you need to know how to apply it more suitably for the units you're fielding, though.
After all, I always say that a list is worthless; your strategy is far more important.

I hope I was able to guide you in your decision with High Elves or Vampire Counts. I'm always willing to help with High Elves, if it matters.

"In the eyes of the Elves of Ulthuan there exists no fear, only grim determination.

Until one has witnessed them in combat, one cannot comprehend the power that they possess."
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-17-09, 02:47 PM
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I've been playing the HE's since 3rd and I have to tell ya that as a whole your army list, despite having some good elements, is lopsided. You'll find yourself struggling through enemy magic phases and absolutely destroyed by any knights with high armor saves that you don't manage to kill, which if the enemy takes more than 1 group of knights or knows how to even remotely take advantage of the terrain, will be many.

First things first you need mages, yes the fancy heroes do really cool stuff, but for HE's magic is amazing, each lore has different armies it works well against so get reading and figure it out mate. Also you took the banner of sorcery when you don't even get a magic phase. Even if you aren't interested in the magic phase at least take 1 mage with the dispel scrolls and spend your magic phase casting drain magic to protect yourself.

Secondly your lord, you need to decide if he's cc or shooty, otherwise you're wasting that high cost bow or the even higher cost dragon.

Thirdly, were are the horses?! Dragon princes can stand up to any knights in the game, they're immune to fire, 2 attacks, and you have the fastest horses out there so you should get the charge... To not take DP's is to be out maneuvered and just asking to die. Deploy them on your flanks, maybe give them the banner of Ellyrion and just run through some woods etc, thus taking advantage of terrain. You might even think about a second group of them.

Fourth, you seem to be relying upon white lions and sword masters alot... they're pretty awesome yes, but with low toughness and armor saves they're really support units to charge enemies on the side that are locked in combat with your seaguard/spearman, plus their high price you can't really afford to put them in the center of your army and have the enemy charge at them. OR if you really want a unit that will stand there and not move when charged by the enemy take a block of phoenix guard. They cause fear, have a decent armor save, a ward save, and they're fearless! Put them in the core of your army, give them that expensive banner and you'll always have time to get a support unit to smash into the side of any nastiest that are silly enough to charge them. 3 blocks of seaguard is probably overkill, in most games you'll find that at least 1 unit of them won't have alot to shoot at due to terrain and that your own units prevent you from having a clear shot to the enemy.

In closing your army list has solid components, I'd say keep the banners and make sure you're getting rank bonuses, musicians are a must. HE's are squishy and you have to be able to stand through the first round of combat and have units in place who can change the flanks or you'll find that your units are beaten in combat, break and get overrun which HE's simply can't afford. Large blocks of seaguard, spearmen, and pheonix guard are the best to do this, and have your white lions, sword masters, and knights ready to charge in on the side, if you take the shooty hero get him on an eagle and try to get him to the side of any blocks of knights or other units with high armor saves so you get to shoot through the entire first rank. Also consider taking a great eagle or some shadow warriors, if deployed correctly they either draw the attention of a large chunk of points giving you more time to shoot and cast or they'll take out the enemy war machines, either way it's a win for you.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-19-09, 12:43 AM
 
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Man, Those were my two choices when I started Fantasy, I went with the High elves just don't be an idiot like me and buy everything in the battleforce separately I spent over over the price without the cavalry.
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-19-09, 12:54 AM
 
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Remember that you only need 2 core choices and get extra specials and rares so take advantage of that. If you're mainly aiming to shoot and engage when the enemy gets close you only really need units of 15 or so sea guard. Also don't underestimate the power of a great eagle. Adding one of those will give you an extra turn of shooting at 2-3 of the units you're march blocking. Everyone else has pretty much covered everything else I think. Good luck.
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-19-09, 02:21 AM
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Bolt throwers aren't S10...you're thinking great cannons.

Bolt throwers are S4 on multishot or S6 on the single shot. On single shot they allow no armour save, on S4 it's armour piercing.

Elves need magic, they're too sissy to fight without it :D.

You at least need some mages to help defend yourself against enemy magic, even just two scroll caddies will help you a lot.
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-20-09, 04:51 PM
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All seems fine but you are SERIOUSLY lacking manuvorability. Without it you will be flanked and destroyed. As a dark elf player (curse you high elves!!) i know that speed can be game changing and give huge advantages. Cosnider dropping one of your elite units or 2 in favour of 2 small units of dragon princes, maybe giving one that banner that lets them move through cover. Put one on each flank to protects your elite guys. Some fast cavalry arent oo bad either. I never leave home without them.

Point 2, long post sorry, anti magic!! Your army will be blown to bits by magic heavy armies. Lucky enough for you High elves have probably the best defensive magic in the fantasy. Drop one of your heroes in favour of a mage with maybe 2 dsipel scrolls (at 20pts i think for a high elf its a rip off).
I would give a different set up to the lord but as i dont have the book on me i cannot suggest anything atm.
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