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post #31 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-07-11, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Hellgore View Post
I I'll give you something to look at I just c&p from ytth. It's graded down from 2k but I think you'll get the point.
Please don't. Havn't you noticed how much Stelek flip-flops his opinions (while calling anyone who disagrees an idiot) and makes constant excuses. A nasty combination of arrogance and stupidity.

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And this is a true allcomers-list. I don't like Stelek and most of his stuff is just boring but then and again he brings up some marvels just like this list.
24 easy to get killpoints that pretty much instantly loses to MSU dark eldar is neither balanced nor a marvel (and really struggles against the op's list for that matter). No subtlety. Nothing clever. Standard fare from that website.

Something I think a lot of detractors of the big paladdin squad squad are missing is the reality of winning the game. This squad sits on the biggest clump of objectives are dares you to come close in five turns. Kp missions are a shoe in and this squad can generally spend four turns marching towards your home objective, relatively safe from retaliation.
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post #32 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-08-11, 07:52 AM
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Please don't. Havn't you noticed how much Stelek flip-flops his opinions (while calling anyone who disagrees an idiot) and makes constant excuses. A nasty combination of arrogance and stupidity.



24 easy to get killpoints that pretty much instantly loses to MSU dark eldar is neither balanced nor a marvel (and really struggles against the op's list for that matter). No subtlety. Nothing clever. Standard fare from that website.

Something I think a lot of detractors of the big paladdin squad squad are missing is the reality of winning the game. This squad sits on the biggest clump of objectives are dares you to come close in five turns. Kp missions are a shoe in and this squad can generally spend four turns marching towards your home objective, relatively safe from retaliation.
Well, I already stated I don't like Stelek but at least I give credit where it is due. We also had that discussion about NOVA missions differing from rulebook missions and about MSU-spam as a whole in another thread. Still I would take (if I played SW) this list to a tournament with BRB-missions. It has a tremendous output of firepower. And those 24 KP aren't that easy to get if you only have 5 or 6 units that are able to fire at targets. And I had a "lol" in mind when I read your MSU-DE statement.

It's the same as with lion, oddjob - we have different foundations on which we base our point of view. Mine is based on more then ten years of playing this game in a variety of different tournament types. Yours on your gaming environment. Seems they differ a lot, doesn't it? You won't convince me with your vague arguments while mine don't seem convincing enough for you. That leaves us standing here with two positions that can't find a compromise. But I find it a bit surprising that you don't acknowledge the quite obvious strength of the aforementioned SW-list. It's not that these kind of lists don't win tournaments with quite ease...
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post #33 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-10-11, 12:28 PM
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Well, I already stated I don't like Stelek but at least I give credit where it is due. We also had that discussion about NOVA missions differing from rulebook missions and about MSU-spam as a whole in another thread. Still I would take (if I played SW) this list to a tournament with BRB-missions. It has a tremendous output of firepower. And those 24 KP aren't that easy to get if you only have 5 or 6 units that are able to fire at targets. And I had a "lol" in mind when I read your MSU-DE statement.
It's completely off topic, so I'll leave it with one notion- have a look at the Dashof pepper vs stelek report on "They shall know fear" to find out what happens to the MSU space wolves in the DE matchup. For reference, the wolves were nearly tabled in three turns. If you are going to take an army as one dimensional as that you have to be the best in the game at it.


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It's the same as with lion, oddjob - we have different foundations on which we base our point of view. Mine is based on more then ten years of playing this game in a variety of different tournament types.
Mine is from being a top table player at a range of large (100+ people) tournaments over the past ten or so years...

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But I find it a bit surprising that you don't acknowledge the quite obvious strength of the aforementioned SW-list. It's not that these kind of lists don't win tournaments with quite ease...
Because they don't. They spam a certain direction and have terrible matchups as a result. The armies that take the top spot(s) tend to be a lot more clever than that. The spammed netlists are generally at least one iteration behind the thinking of those who might actually contest the podium.
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post #34 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-10-11, 01:18 PM
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This discussion has been excellent but I think it might be time to take it in a new direction. I'm not a tournament player (because I lack both the time and money), but I am very interested in the idea of competitive lists and developing a list to that mythical point.

If I'm reading this correctly, the biggest problem with a Deathstar is the extreme lack of mobility and the dominance of shooting in 5th Ed. So how do we turn this list into something that can compensate for, or even overcome, it's weaknesses?

Is it a matter of needing to cut back on our Paladins and bring some support? Would it be worth taking 10 Terminators instead of that second squad of Paladins? What about trying Draigo + 10x Paladins/Coteaz + Melta Warrioirs?

I don't know the exact list that won second at Nova but I do know it wasn't the internet version of Draigowing. It had Interceptors for one thing, and the guy who ran it talked about going up to 10 with 2x Incinerators.

My point is that this army is by no means perfected and still has a lot of potential. There are a lot of things in the Dex to try.

Also, has anyone used a Callidus Assassin in conjunction with Draigowing? Seems like it could put your opponent between a rock and a hard place (though, at 1750 it'd be hard to fit in).

@Bushido, Why are you not running a Libby?


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post #35 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-10-11, 02:56 PM
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It's completely off topic, so I'll leave it with one notion- have a look at the Dashof pepper vs stelek report on "They shall know fear" to find out what happens to the MSU space wolves in the DE matchup. For reference, the wolves were nearly tabled in three turns. If you are going to take an army as one dimensional as that you have to be the best in the game at it.
Well, this reference doesn't really work out. Mr. "Iknowitalwaysbetter" Stelek admitted his list wasn't really a balanced and competitive version - for some ominous "teaching" reason he didn't takt ethe one I posted as it was the one he kept for casual games at NOVA and he - at least said so - played it once there, but in a tournament game. Thus, it is a vain argument.


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Mine is from being a top table player at a range of large (100+ people) tournaments over the past ten or so years...
Well, as I said: Gaming environments differ. From US to UK to Germany to Australia. I've been at tournaments where lists won that - by merely looking at them - shouldn't have but did as nobody brought the paper to their rock. That happens less these days but it still does. I can't judge your environment so I won't. It's best to leave it there.

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Because they don't. They spam a certain direction and have terrible matchups as a result. The armies that take the top spot(s) tend to be a lot more clever than that. The spammed netlists are generally at least one iteration behind the thinking of those who might actually contest the podium.
Do they? When I look at the results of tournaments worldwide they differ from this statement. Battle for Salvation was won by a Grey Knight MSU-list followed by SW and DA. So we have the "theory meets reality"-part of this discussion again. And when I look at the most prominent blogs from all over the world you seem to stand even more alone with your view. So, all the other 40k-bloggers and forums are tactical noobs? Btw. I don't see any terrible matchup against that MSU-SW-List. No, this Draigowing list isn't one either.

Show me a tournament won by a massive draigowing list and show me the lists of all the participants. Maybe then I will concede that point. Until then it stands.
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post #36 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-10-11, 03:03 PM
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This discussion has been excellent but I think it might be time to take it in a new direction. I'm not a tournament player (because I lack both the time and money), but I am very interested in the idea of competitive lists and developing a list to that mythical point.

If I'm reading this correctly, the biggest problem with a Deathstar is the extreme lack of mobility and the dominance of shooting in 5th Ed. So how do we turn this list into something that can compensate for, or even overcome, it's weaknesses?

Is it a matter of needing to cut back on our Paladins and bring some support? Would it be worth taking 10 Terminators instead of that second squad of Paladins? What about trying Draigo + 10x Paladins/Coteaz + Melta Warrioirs?

I don't know the exact list that won second at Nova but I do know it wasn't the internet version of Draigowing. It had Interceptors for one thing, and the guy who ran it talked about going up to 10 with 2x Incinerators.

My point is that this army is by no means perfected and still has a lot of potential. There are a lot of things in the Dex to try.

Also, has anyone used a Callidus Assassin in conjunction with Draigowing? Seems like it could put your opponent between a rock and a hard place (though, at 1750 it'd be hard to fit in).

@Bushido, Why are you not running a Libby?
Well, there is a list by the-one-who-shall-not-be-named he calls competitive. I wouldn't but maybe just lack the tacitcal finesse to make it work. From yesthetruthhurts.com:

"2000 Pts – Grey Knights Roster

1 Lord Kaldor Draigo, 275 pts

1 Inquisitor Coteaz, 100 pts

1 Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband, 148 pts
1 Jokaero Weaponsmith
6 Warrior Acolyte (Laspistol; Storm Bolter x1)
5 Warrior Acolyte (Chainsword; Laspistol)
1 Razorback (Heavy Bolter w/Psybolt Ammunition; Searchlight)

1 Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband, 148 pts
1 Jokaero Weaponsmith
6 Warrior Acolyte (Laspistol; Storm Bolter x1)
5 Warrior Acolyte (Chainsword; Laspistol)
1 Razorback (Heavy Bolter w/Psybolt Ammunition; Searchlight)

1 Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband, 147 pts
1 Jokaero Weaponsmith
6 Warrior Acolyte (Laspistol; Storm Bolter x1)
5 Warrior Acolyte (Chainsword; Laspistol)
1 Razorback (Heavy Bolter w/Psybolt Ammunition)

1 Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband, 147 pts
1 Jokaero Weaponsmith
6 Warrior Acolyte (Laspistol; Storm Bolter x1)
5 Warrior Acolyte (Chainsword; Laspistol)
1 Razorback (Heavy Bolter w/Psybolt Ammunition)

1 Paladin Squad, 630 pts
4 Paladin (Psycannon; Nemesis Daemonhammerx2)
6 Paladin (Nemesis Force Halberd x2, Sword x2, Hammer x2)

1 Dreadnought, 135 pts (Psybolt Ammunition; Twin-Linked Autocannon; Twin-Linked Autocannon)

1 Dreadnought, 135 pts (Psybolt Ammunition; Twin-Linked Autocannon; Twin-Linked Autocannon)

1 Dreadnought, 135 pts (Psybolt Ammunition; Twin-Linked Autocannon; Twin-Linked Autocannon)

Total Roster Cost: 2000

Notes: Draigo usually gives the paladins his grand strategy, but you can be annoying and make 1-3 dreads troops choices.

You can split the Paladins up or run them as one big fuck you in front of all the acolytes.

Obviously if you roll a ’2′ on one of the henchmen units, that’s the one that should sit in the back holding your objectives. 36″ range storm bolters is funnee. ;)

Yes, this list actually is competitive. No meltaguns kinda sucks, but you have 16 psycannon shots that move and fire; 3 Missile battery dreads, and 4 super multilasers. I suppose early you can count the 4 BS3 lascannons, but meh, anything they add is just icing on the cake.

Why no apothecary? You want light arms fire to tickle your Paladins instead of always going at the warriors. Note however that all of your units pretty much laugh at light arms fire. Heavy weapons need to go into the Paladins, but also need to go into the Dreads, and to a lesser extent, the Razorbacks."

Well, obviously it is built for 2k and I don't know if this can be scaled down as I so far haven't thought much about it. At least it's an interesting different point of view. Maybe we can take this as a basis for a 1750 competitive draigowing list with the help of the other forummembers here.
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post #37 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-10-11, 09:58 PM Thread Starter
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@Bushido, Why are you not running a Libby?
I did run a variant of this list with a libby for awhile and although the libby is useful I dont feel he is worth the huge point cost. When I sat down and thought about the only power which I found consistently useful was shrouding. Dont get me wrong the rest are awesome but for example sanctuary is great on paper but it hardly ever denies a charge and most enemies have grenades thereby ignoring the whole charging through cover thing. Another example would be quicksilver unfortunately it can only be used in your turn, bar DE paladins with halberds are still faster in CC than just about everything, so again its cool but its not worth taking a 200+pt model for it.

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post #38 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-11-11, 01:43 AM
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It's the same as with lion, oddjob - we have different foundations on which we base our point of view. Mine is based on more then ten years of playing this game in a variety of different tournament types. Yours on your gaming environment. Seems they differ a lot, doesn't it?
I would just like to take a second to point out what an arrogant ass this makes you sound like. im going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didnt just call us both noobs like it sounded like.
You have absolutely no idea who i am or what my background is so dont make assumptions because it undermines a quality discussion.

One list i have been playing around with is this...

1750
draigo
librarian with a bunch of powers

single palli

10 wound allocated, feel no pain, bannered plallies

10 interceptors 2 psycannons, 2 hammers

venerable psyfledred.

The idea is grand stratergy can make the ven dred scoring and with venerable and the shrouding should easily last most games.
It can also make intercepters scout for a first turn assault which can drag Draigo into combat on turn 2 or demon hammer tanks that havent moved yet. the abuility to do this should force the opponent to deploy differently to how they might otherwise.

Giving scout to the paladins means they can take the centre of the board by turn 1 and start hearding enemies away from objectives and board sectors.

The interceptors can be used to supliment the paladins lack of movement potential but the paladins dont need to move that much. they find the part of the board that wins the game then stay there.


My friend used roughly this list at a major tourney recently and won all games by a massive margin.

Coteaz
Grand master with grenades and skulls

10 elite pallies no apothacary, with banner

5 deathcults a mystic and banisher

10 strike knights 2 psycannons

Ven psyfledred

Land raider base.


He used deep strike on the pallies alot and it worked out real well for him.
The land raider also gives the ability to block line of sight to the pallies and dred, it also gives some good mobility especially with deep striking pallies and psychic communion. there are also some good assault tricks with the ICs and the land raider.

I honestly think that you should almost never run a second normal dred before having a venerable one. the toughness is invaluable and makes a ven dred better than 2 normal ones in many games.
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post #39 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-11-11, 07:51 AM
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I would just like to take a second to point out what an arrogant ass this makes you sound like. im going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didnt just call us both noobs like it sounded like.
You have absolutely no idea who i am or what my background is so dont make assumptions because it undermines a quality discussion.

One list i have been playing around with is this...

1750
draigo
librarian with a bunch of powers

single palli

10 wound allocated, feel no pain, bannered plallies

10 interceptors 2 psycannons, 2 hammers

venerable psyfledred.

The idea is grand stratergy can make the ven dred scoring and with venerable and the shrouding should easily last most games.
It can also make intercepters scout for a first turn assault which can drag Draigo into combat on turn 2 or demon hammer tanks that havent moved yet. the abuility to do this should force the opponent to deploy differently to how they might otherwise.

Giving scout to the paladins means they can take the centre of the board by turn 1 and start hearding enemies away from objectives and board sectors.

The interceptors can be used to supliment the paladins lack of movement potential but the paladins dont need to move that much. they find the part of the board that wins the game then stay there.


My friend used roughly this list at a major tourney recently and won all games by a massive margin.

Coteaz
Grand master with grenades and skulls

10 elite pallies no apothacary, with banner

5 deathcults a mystic and banisher

10 strike knights 2 psycannons

Ven psyfledred

Land raider base.


He used deep strike on the pallies alot and it worked out real well for him.
The land raider also gives the ability to block line of sight to the pallies and dred, it also gives some good mobility especially with deep striking pallies and psychic communion. there are also some good assault tricks with the ICs and the land raider.

I honestly think that you should almost never run a second normal dred before having a venerable one. the toughness is invaluable and makes a ven dred better than 2 normal ones in many games.
Ah damn, that's the typical internet problem - No intention on degrading or calling someone something. I just wanted to point out that we have made our different experiences since we started playing this game because of the surroundings we play in. And I spoke about your "gaming environment" because I simply do know nothing about it and wanted to keep it neutral with no judgement at all. So, I apologize if it sounded arrogant to you as it was meant as totally the opposite. I didn't want to degrade anyone in anyway but simply keep the discussion in the civil manner we had so far whilst making clear that your arguments so far didn't convince me of your point of view. That was all.

Now I think the second list is better than the first but in the end both add nothing new to the discussion. I really wonder how they could win tournaments and just seem to underline the high quality of your friend as a player making this list win. On the other hand, if this is an indication for the army lists played in that tournament I can imagine that this kind of rock has met no paper there. But that would be making an assumption that is not apropriate.

For example I could spread out my GKSS over the board and put your friend's deepstriking pallies in danger with warp quake. And if my purifier squad gets to charge first you're suddenly I1 while I can reroll failed to hits with S6 on 27 Attacks plus the BC. Not an example for what MUST happen in the game but it COULD. And then what is left of that army? Nothing I have to be afraid of. A risk I would not want to take.

Well I take it that you make some suggestions for IntereoVivo how to improve his list. I have made a suggestion already, there is nothing to add from my side.

Last edited by Hellgore; 10-11-11 at 07:53 AM.
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post #40 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-11-11, 01:20 PM
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I'm really curious about the inclusion of Mystics in a list of this type. Let me throw some thoughts down and you guys can pick them apart.

Draigo
Coteaz

10x Paladins w/ 4x Psycannon, Nemesis Force Halberd x2, Sword x2, Hammer x4

Henchman Squad: 5x Acolytes w/ 3x Meltas, Mystic, Razorback w/ Psybolt, Searchlight
Henchman Squad: 5x Acolytes w/ 3x Meltas, Mystic, Razorback w/ Psybolt, Searchlight
Henchman Squad: 5x Acolytes w/ 3x Meltas, Mystic, Razorback w/ Psybolt, Searchlight
Henchman Squad: 3x Servitors w/ MultiMeltas, Joko, Mystic, 3x Acolytes, Chimera

Psyrifle Dread
Psyrifle Dread

This is 1750 on the nose. I tried to come up with something that would have a slightly higher shot output while still threatening with the Paladins. The Pally's could choose to start on, walk on or Deepstrike. The three melta squads move forward and try to do as much damage as possible and the Paladins either walk up or Deepstrike behind them. I would almost be tempted to start Draigo on board if I was Deepstriking them...

Look at this list, something in the back of my head is telling me it will not work...what is wrong with it?


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