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post #11 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-03-11, 10:26 AM Thread Starter
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Well 9 incubi + vect charge and azdrubal attacks and causes 3.5 wounds
8 Incubi - 24 attacks on the charge at S4 (Klaives +1S)
1 Klaivex - 4 attacks on the charge at S6 (sorry forgot to mention that he as included and had demi klaives, sorry if my spelling is off)
Vect - 7 attacks on the charge re-rolling to hit and 3+ to wound with a power weapon.

= 12.37 wounds, I didnt even consider that they might have furious charge which if anyone is interested could mean a total of 15.481 wounds.

When you are talking about sanctuary I assume you mean that they will suffer the I penalty for moving through cover, that is true but thats assuming I take a librarian which Im not in this list. A very good point though

Im not arguing with you, for the most part i agree with you, in any game I would put my money on the paladins surviving everything that your opponent throws at them. The banner is great and it is something I am considering for the list. I think you have also missed the point of what i said, im not saying that my palladins are crappy in CC and they need some extra punch, im just saying that it would be foolish to think that they are indestructible.

I once for example played against a GK player with 3 land raiders each with 10 death cult and rad grenades (xeno inquisitor and tech marine), the 10man paladin unit got charged by both units, they didn't last long. Normally I would have kept them in terrain but he chose sides and made that particularly difficult for me. An extreme situation I know, but it happens, that is all I am saying. This was the only time my palladins were actually wiped out in CC normally if they gd die its because they run off the table or very very bad luck when being shot at.

I have played this list, or slight variation of this list 21 times and have a WLD ratio of 16-3-1, im worried about combat ability of the paladins, im just looking for friendly advice

I apologise if i seemed hostile, that was not my intention

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post #12 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-03-11, 10:53 PM
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Hail,

I find Paladins squads dangerous when they number 6+. I would drop the Inquisitor, 1 Dread, and 1 MC weapon to get 4 more Paladins in that 5 man squad. Or if cc with power weapon opponents is a cause for concern, drop the same as above, and for those points get a Grand Master with Blind, rad and psychotroke grenades. That Grand master could go in the 5 man unit. Now he also gives a second roll on the Grand Strategy, which could be for counter attack on the unit he is in(or joins). Now the blind grenades remove bonus attacks for an opponent charging you and you roll your LD to get the +1 bonus.
If none of the above appeals in any way, try this: drop the Inquisitor and MC 16 weapons! Start with all the shooty stuff, combine with the Grand Strategy of Hammer of righteousness. In an Elite army such as this every shot counts, this will help.

BFTBG!!

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post #13 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-03-11, 11:52 PM
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Im not saying your maths are off your 100% right when the incubi attack they do some damage im trying to point out that not only do the paladins almost always kill the majority of an assaulting unit before they get to attack im trying to highlight that even when the deathstar unit of an opponents force assaults you they still lose horribly unless they have psykout grenades or something.

The paladins are not indestructable its true but they can be damn near it with an apothacary and librarian to give the shrouding. Having those things allows you to do something that seems like a bad idea but hear me out.

Pretend they ARE indestructable (with the minor exeption of the multi charge scenario that beats them or savage melta spam) and just throw them at opponents as hard and fast as you can.
If they fail to stop them they die, if they stop them at the cost of the guts of thier army they lose, if they run they lose because the paladins chase them away from the objectives, if its kill points they lose because you just have too few available kill points and those you have are rock hard.
Its a weird way of playing for some people but warps the game and makes it all about those paladins which most armies simply cannot answer.

The 3 land raider army is one that might be able to answer it but the sollution is simple, make a wall in front of the main unit. The psycannons kill one land raider comfortably, the second charges the wall through sanctuary which should hold ok. We will assume the wall will die at some point but the psycannons from the main unit kill the third raider, kite and shoot.

That is one of the few armies that can take it but that army would be trash in most tournaments. Its a one trick pony that will auto beat some people and auto lose to others so you should rarely see them in a tournament, if you do even more rarely at the top tables.

and dont worry about sounding hostile its the internet we all sound hostile :p
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post #14 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-04-11, 07:41 AM
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Hmmm... I don't know. Why should I (as opponent) engage Paladins in CC? The hardest lists out ther (SW and IG foremost) field enough S8+ weaponry to reduce the paladins significantly. My regular SW-opponent fields three LasPlas Razors, two melta Scouts, GH with meltas, njal plus two runepriests and three longfangsquads with 11 Missiles and 4 Lascannons.
No Paladinsquad survives that kind of firepower.
Or my last tournament opponent with IG that rolled in with two plasma-Leman-Russ (Executor?), two vendettas, two devildogs, meltavets and 12 lascannonsquads? And thats just the S8+/AP2 weaponry...

When people find out that a balanced list can handle Paladins quite well they will stop crying "cheese", just take care of them (and with them about half of the listtotal) and then having enough time to wipe the rest.

I can't include them in a balanced, tournament hard list and still call it this way.
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post #15 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-04-11, 08:38 AM
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Well lets do some maths because the breakdown is actually pretty important here.

Take the IG army you spoke of.
List of guns broken down into instances of fire:
5 plasma cannons
5 plasma cannons
melta blast
melta blast
3 TL lascannons
3 TL lascannons
3 melta guns
3 melta guns
3 melta guns
3 lascannons
3 lascannons
3 lascannons
1 lascannon
1 lascannon
1 lascannon

now with feel no pain and wound allocation im going to go ahead and call the non AP 2 or high S weapons irrelivant. In a 1750 pt army (i havent calculated it up yet points wise) you cant fit much actual dakka in with all of the stuff listed.
I am confidant i can do that because as i said i have survived 7 rounds of 3 punishers and 50 infantry shooting at me and still had 4 models.

Blast weapons really need to fire first to make sure they hit stuff.
5 plasma cannons
With proper spreading they should on average hit 1 model so thats 5 hits we will call it 5 wounds for arguments sake.
With 3 + cover from the shrouding, one wound goes on draigo and 4 wounds go on individual paladins. We will say that 2 of the 10 pallies now have wounds.
This happens again and this time one palli is wounded so thats 3.

Devil dog shoots and causes a wound, draigo takes it and given that its his third wound now he loses one.
3 pallies and draigo wounded
Devil dog shoots and causes a wound, draigo takes it and saves
Vendetta shoots and hits twice wounds twice Draigo takes one and saves and a single wounded palli takes a hit and saves cover.
Vendetta 2 does the same and draigo takes a wound and a single wounded palli takes a hit and saves
3 lascannons hit and wound with 2 draigo takes one and saves, single wouinded pallie take a hit and dies. Thats model 1.
3 lascannons hit and wound with 2 draigo takes one and saves, single wouinded pallie take a hit and saves.
3 lascannons hit and wound with 1 draigo takes one and takes a wound he is now down to 1 wound.
3 meltas 2 hits 2 wounds 2 single wound pallies take hits one dies thats model 2.
3 meltas 2 hits 2 wounds 2 single wound pallies take hits Both save.
3 meltas 2 hits 2 wounds 2 single wound pallies take hits one dies thats model 3.
single lascannon misses
single lascannon hits and wounds single wounded palli takes it and saves.
single lascannon misses

ok that is about average shooting skewed slightly in the favour of the guard player because you will notice every hit caused a wound and that somehow the meltas were all in range T1 when IG went first.
The WHOLE army shot at this unit and killed 3 models which is pretty good. They ignored all the dreds and the other unit of pallies and they stayed still. The pallies with 4 psycannons still in hand then shoot back and kill or stun heaps of stuff with thier drednought buddies. Those melta vets are now in a world of pain so are the vendettas so the firepower drops.
Round 2 lets say both vendettas were killed which is resonable seeing they moved only 6" and have no cover from 3 psyfledreds and 2 units of pallies kill 3 units of melta vets in combat or shooting whatever is your fancy.
Now your looking at
5 plasma cannons
5 plasma cannons
melta blast
melta blast
3 lascannons
3 lascannons
3 lascannons
1 lascannon
1 lascannon
1 lascannon
Which is way less firepower and the GKs have lost 3 stormbolters...

Obviously this is a weak simulation but you get the point. Even a guard army with lets be honest, the goods to kill feel no pain, 2 wound terminators still didnt do that much damage all things considered.

The space wolves army is even worse i dont see how that army CAN win. I have played the matchup using the wolves and you just strait up cant do it. The missiles allow the armor saves of the pallies, and draigo gets feel no pain from it so they are hard pressed to do anything and almost the rest of the instand death weaponary happens at 12" range which if you dont know is not where you want to be in relaton to the remaining 8 paladins + charachters.
In fact you actually slingshot the pallies closer to you which means your backline gets charged earlier.

It may sound kind of korny but have faith in the paladins, they are ALOT tougher than they look on paper. 5 is a hard nut to crack but 10 breaks the game.
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post #16 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-04-11, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by paddlepop lion View Post
Well lets do some maths because the breakdown is actually pretty important here.

Take the IG army you spoke of.
List of guns broken down into instances of fire:
5 plasma cannons
5 plasma cannons
melta blast
melta blast
3 TL lascannons
3 TL lascannons
3 melta guns
3 melta guns
3 melta guns
3 lascannons
3 lascannons
3 lascannons
1 lascannon
1 lascannon
1 lascannon

now with feel no pain and wound allocation im going to go ahead and call the non AP 2 or high S weapons irrelivant. In a 1750 pt army (i havent calculated it up yet points wise) you cant fit much actual dakka in with all of the stuff listed.
I am confidant i can do that because as i said i have survived 7 rounds of 3 punishers and 50 infantry shooting at me and still had 4 models.

Blast weapons really need to fire first to make sure they hit stuff.
5 plasma cannons
With proper spreading they should on average hit 1 model so thats 5 hits we will call it 5 wounds for arguments sake.
With 3 + cover from the shrouding, one wound goes on draigo and 4 wounds go on individual paladins. We will say that 2 of the 10 pallies now have wounds.
This happens again and this time one palli is wounded so thats 3.

Devil dog shoots and causes a wound, draigo takes it and given that its his third wound now he loses one.
3 pallies and draigo wounded
Devil dog shoots and causes a wound, draigo takes it and saves
Vendetta shoots and hits twice wounds twice Draigo takes one and saves and a single wounded palli takes a hit and saves cover.
Vendetta 2 does the same and draigo takes a wound and a single wounded palli takes a hit and saves
3 lascannons hit and wound with 2 draigo takes one and saves, single wouinded pallie take a hit and dies. Thats model 1.
3 lascannons hit and wound with 2 draigo takes one and saves, single wouinded pallie take a hit and saves.
3 lascannons hit and wound with 1 draigo takes one and takes a wound he is now down to 1 wound.
3 meltas 2 hits 2 wounds 2 single wound pallies take hits one dies thats model 2.
3 meltas 2 hits 2 wounds 2 single wound pallies take hits Both save.
3 meltas 2 hits 2 wounds 2 single wound pallies take hits one dies thats model 3.
single lascannon misses
single lascannon hits and wounds single wounded palli takes it and saves.
single lascannon misses

ok that is about average shooting skewed slightly in the favour of the guard player because you will notice every hit caused a wound and that somehow the meltas were all in range T1 when IG went first.
The WHOLE army shot at this unit and killed 3 models which is pretty good. They ignored all the dreds and the other unit of pallies and they stayed still. The pallies with 4 psycannons still in hand then shoot back and kill or stun heaps of stuff with thier drednought buddies. Those melta vets are now in a world of pain so are the vendettas so the firepower drops.
Round 2 lets say both vendettas were killed which is resonable seeing they moved only 6" and have no cover from 3 psyfledreds and 2 units of pallies kill 3 units of melta vets in combat or shooting whatever is your fancy.
Now your looking at
5 plasma cannons
5 plasma cannons
melta blast
melta blast
3 lascannons
3 lascannons
3 lascannons
1 lascannon
1 lascannon
1 lascannon
Which is way less firepower and the GKs have lost 3 stormbolters...

Obviously this is a weak simulation but you get the point. Even a guard army with lets be honest, the goods to kill feel no pain, 2 wound terminators still didnt do that much damage all things considered.

The space wolves army is even worse i dont see how that army CAN win. I have played the matchup using the wolves and you just strait up cant do it. The missiles allow the armor saves of the pallies, and draigo gets feel no pain from it so they are hard pressed to do anything and almost the rest of the instand death weaponary happens at 12" range which if you dont know is not where you want to be in relaton to the remaining 8 paladins + charachters.
In fact you actually slingshot the pallies closer to you which means your backline gets charged earlier.

It may sound kind of korny but have faith in the paladins, they are ALOT tougher than they look on paper. 5 is a hard nut to crack but 10 breaks the game.

Well, it's nice that you obviously never loose cover where you play. Is it giant woods that stretch from one side to the other? Honestly and no offense intended but your example does not really connect to the reality of the majority of games that I have experienced. If you want to spread out 12 40-mm-bases correctly so small blasts can't hurt more than one terminator/paladin then these terrainpieces have to be really big in order to get that kind of cover for more than one turn. More than that 25 percent average. This sounds like what mathhammer theorizing in an optimized setting always does: too good to be true.

What do you start on board in Dawn of War? How do you walk over to your opponent in Spearhead through dangerous/difficult terrain quick enough to get to assault?

Furthermore you imply that SW don't know how to move their units and get to fire at your death star while staying out of reach for your assault. I don't know about your opponents, but mine do know how to movement block and to sacrifice units the right way. Charging you from a side you don't like where you have to make your pile in move to included. And: constantly letting you move through dangerous/difficult terrain isn't nice either, no matter if you have 2+ and FNP. Not to forget the funny effects Njal can bring to the table.
I'd really like to see a 1750 Draigowing of yours facing my friends SW described above. Would be interesting to watch for sure.

You can mathhammer all day long, experience with reality tells me that draigowing is a rock army and thus doesn't qualify for being competitive.

Last edited by Hellgore; 10-04-11 at 11:09 AM.
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post #17 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-04-11, 11:47 AM
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It may be different in different parts of the world but in australia tables usually have like 1/4 of the board with terrain on it to get cover from. I dont like doing it this way, i think its a bit of a cop out but most people class most things as area terrain.

Its a common opinion that i share is that cover is really really easy to get and in a unit of 12 40mm bases its easy as pie to get cover so i think its a fair assumption that you have cover most of the time and definately for the first 2 turns.
My example was only 2 turns worth as you will note and i also did mention that it was a vaccume scenario and that i know it never goes down exactly like that in real life. The point i was trying to make is that even in the best possible situation (minus the cover thing) the given guard army fails dismily to just splat the paladins as was suggested it would.

I dont know what range you play with on a melta but i follow the rules which says a melta gun has 12" range. This is convieniently the same range as infantry can charge from which was the point. When infantry shoot meltas at paladins, paladins charge. Sure sometimes you get a bad roll for movement but meltas are also not shot from 12" they are shot from 10" to be sure of range, 11" if there good and thats all they care about shooting.
Even if you fail your distance roll you can still move closer maintaining cover and shoot the bejeesus out of a unit of greyhunters with 4 psycannons and however many bolters.

Njal is a wildcard sure but he is one dude in one codex, point stands that the majority of codexes let alone armies jsut dont have what it takes to deal with this kind of play.


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You can mathhammer all day long, experience with reality tells me that draigowing is a rock army and thus doesn't qualify for being competitive.
This is bollox. If you experience tells you that good players dont lose to paladins then how was it that my team mate in the recent australian team championships won all his games against some of the best players in our country?
You may not have seen it go but these puppies smash face when played well and are every bit as compettetive as any IG or wolves army.
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post #18 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-04-11, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by paddlepop lion View Post
It may be different in different parts of the world but in australia tables usually have like 1/4 of the board with terrain on it to get cover from. I dont like doing it this way, i think its a bit of a cop out but most people class most things as area terrain.

Its a common opinion that i share is that cover is really really easy to get and in a unit of 12 40mm bases its easy as pie to get cover so i think its a fair assumption that you have cover most of the time and definately for the first 2 turns.
My example was only 2 turns worth as you will note and i also did mention that it was a vaccume scenario and that i know it never goes down exactly like that in real life. The point i was trying to make is that even in the best possible situation (minus the cover thing) the given guard army fails dismily to just splat the paladins as was suggested it would.

I dont know what range you play with on a melta but i follow the rules which says a melta gun has 12" range. This is convieniently the same range as infantry can charge from which was the point. When infantry shoot meltas at paladins, paladins charge. Sure sometimes you get a bad roll for movement but meltas are also not shot from 12" they are shot from 10" to be sure of range, 11" if there good and thats all they care about shooting.
Even if you fail your distance roll you can still move closer maintaining cover and shoot the bejeesus out of a unit of greyhunters with 4 psycannons and however many bolters.

Njal is a wildcard sure but he is one dude in one codex, point stands that the majority of codexes let alone armies jsut dont have what it takes to deal with this kind of play.




This is bollox. If you experience tells you that good players dont lose to paladins then how was it that my team mate in the recent australian team championships won all his games against some of the best players in our country?
You may not have seen it go but these puppies smash face when played well and are every bit as compettetive as any IG or wolves army.
Concerning the Meltas... you of course can imagine that those GH only shoot when necessary and if they want to, they shoot from a position you don't really want to go to as there are maybe no objectives? Why should a SW let you slingshot into his core army, when he can drag you to other edges? While his scouts kill the Dreads and the long fangs and other mobile GH-squads have all the time they need to grab that one objective more that's necessary and shoot the remaining 5 Paladins to pieces?

But that's theorizing again...

It seems we agree to disagree on this matter. I didn't see Draigowingarmies win any major tournament in Germany or in US, but as I don't really observe Australia for this matter I may have overlooked a victory there.

Last edited by Hellgore; 10-04-11 at 12:44 PM.
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post #19 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-04-11, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Hellgore View Post
I didn't see Draigowingarmies win any major tournament in Germany or in US, but as I don't really observe Australia for this matter I may have overlooked a victory there.
Table one on the last game of the Nova open- coming second overall?

I like the notion of a large paladdin squad as they have so many options through combat squadding, DSing, scouting, librarian powers and draigo. They can shoot well, combat awesomely well and dominate the centre of the board like no other.

They have plenty of obvious issues, but you have the other 750-1000pts of the list to deal with those.
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post #20 of 43 (permalink) Old 10-04-11, 01:25 PM
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Table one on the last game of the Nova open- coming second overall?

I like the notion of a large paladdin squad as they have so many options through combat squadding, DSing, scouting, librarian powers and draigo. They can shoot well, combat awesomely well and dominate the centre of the board like no other.

They have plenty of obvious issues, but you have the other 750-1000pts of the list to deal with those.
I just had a look at the tournament ratings of Nova: SW, DA, SW, BA and then GK. And even if: I said "win" and not going second so my claim stands.

Don't misunderstand me: I think Draigo+Libby and a 10-men-Pally-squad are definitely a cool unit. Great minis, cool background (I like Draigo!) and good rules. BUT: No theoryhammer can convince me that this built is competitive. It's almost 1200 points on its own, leaving 600 to 850 pts for the rest of the army from a codex that is filled with expensive units.

Last edited by Hellgore; 10-04-11 at 01:32 PM.
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