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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old 06-21-13, 06:14 AM Thread Starter
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Default "Chaos" Space Marine list (Grey Knights)

Okay so - if you've followed me for a while you know that i have a Custom Space Marine Chapter "The Emperor's Shield"

And they pretty much have a hate-on for Malal's Space Marines (Sons of Malice).

So, after doing a little research - I've decided to use Grey Knights as the Codex of Choice for Malal.
They are badass, can be very aggressive - and since Malal hates the other Chaos Lords, their "Favored Enemy: Daemon" works out fantastic.



So, here is my First Draft! I've never played Grey Knights before, only played against them.

2500 pts.

H.Q. (2)
"Kathal" (Brotherhood Champion) [Warlord]
w/ Anointed Blade, Storm Bolter, Digital Weapons, Psybolt Ammo
[Will join the Strike Squad inside the Stormraven]

"Warp Sorcerer" (Librarian)
w/ MC Storm Bolter, MC Force Halberd, Digital Weapons, Psybolt Ammo, Mastery Level 3.
- Might of Titan, Quicksilver, Smite, The Summoning and Warp Rift
[Will join the Terminator Squad]


Troops (3)
x2 "Chaos Space Marines" (Grey Knight Strike Squad) w/ Psybolt Ammo
- "Aspiring Champion" (Justicar) w/ Nemesis Warding Stave & MC Storm Bolter
- x3 Marines w/ Storm Bolters & Halberd
- x3 Marines w/ Storm Bolters & Falcions
- x3 Marines w/ Storm Bolters & Daemonhammers
[One is inside the Stormraven]
[One has a Rhino]
+ Rhino w/ Dual Storm Bolters, Psybolt Ammo & Warp Stabilization Field

Terminator Squad w/ Psybolt Ammo
x1 Justicar w/ Warding Stave.
x1 Terminator w/ Storm Bolter & Daemonhammer
x1 Terminator w/ Storm Bolter & Force Halberd
x1 Terminator w/ Storm Bolter & Falcions
x1 Terminator w/ Storm Bolter & Brotherhood Banner


Fast Attack (2)
"Warp Raptor Squad" Interceptor Squad w/ Psybolt Ammo
- "Aspiring Champion" (Justicar) w/ Master-Crafted Daemonhammer, Master-Crafted Storm Bolter
- x4 Raptors w/ Falchions
- x5 Raptors w/ Halberd

Stormraven Gunship
w/ Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, x4 Mindstrike Missiles, Hurricane Bolters. Psybolt Ammo & Warp Stabilization Field


Heavy Attack (2)
Nemesis Dreadknight w/ Gatling Psylenmcer, Nemesis Daemonhammer, and Personal Teleporter

"Havoc" Purgation Squad
"Aspiring Champion" Justicar w/ Daemonhammer
x4 "Havoc Chaos Space Marines" w/ Psycannon
+ Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Assault cannons, Storm Bolter, Psybolt Ammo, and Warp Stabilization Field.




Okay, so lets get down to Tactics.

The idea is to move quickly, and hit hard. The interceptors and Dreadknight are Jump- so they can move fast, Hammer of Wrath, and just be nasty.

Everything else can be Summoned by the Librarian. (hense the "Warp" in the title)

Got three troop slots, two of which are 10-man marines, the other is a 6-man (well, 6 w/ libby) of Terminators.

Psybolt guns are pretty much my version for the "Mark of Malal" - making the guns more deadly.
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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old 06-21-13, 05:25 PM
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Alright, broke this down. My comments in red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarHammerman View Post
2500 pts.

H.Q. (2)
"Kathal" (Brotherhood Champion) [Warlord]
w/ Anointed Blade, Storm Bolter, Digital Weapons, Psybolt Ammo
[Will join the Strike Squad inside the Stormraven]

He doesn't need Psybolt Ammo, he's cheap enough and the idea of the Champion is to throw him into a Challenge, let him die and hopefully drag down whatever he was against.

"Warp Sorcerer" (Librarian)
w/ MC Storm Bolter, MC Force Halberd, Digital Weapons, Psybolt Ammo, Mastery Level 3.
- Might of Titan, Quicksilver, Smite, The Summoning and Warp Rift
[Will join the Terminator Squad]

Never seen a good reason to take "The Summoning". Even in fast armies it just has the potential to go so terribly wrong. Same with Mastery Level 3. Would drop the Master Craft stuff and give him a Warding Stave. Drop the Psybolt also, it's not worth it for one guy.


Troops (3)
x2 "Chaos Space Marines" (Grey Knight Strike Squad) w/ Psybolt Ammo
- "Aspiring Champion" (Justicar) w/ Nemesis Warding Stave & MC Storm Bolter
- x3 Marines w/ Storm Bolters & Halberd
- x3 Marines w/ Storm Bolters & Falcions
- x3 Marines w/ Storm Bolters & Daemonhammers
[One is inside the Stormraven]
[One has a Rhino]
+ Rhino w/ Dual Storm Bolters, Psybolt Ammo & Warp Stabilization Field

Unless you're doing this to be "fluffy" (you've already blown all Grey Knights fluff out of the water by trying to run them as Chaos, so I assume you don't care.) or go with some story, the mantra with Grey Knights is "less is more". You also have no Psycannons on these guys and that's a HUGE mistake. It's a walking Assault Cannon, why wouldn't you take it? Drop all the Falchions, all the Halberds, all the Hammers, the Stave, the master craft. This squad should AT MOST cost 255 pts (10 knights, 2 psycannons, psybolt ammo, halberd for challenge, hammer. But even I'd drop the halberd and hammer). Also, you want to be fast so I get the Warp field. But dual storm bolters are just meh. Especially if you're going to be moving a lot then you'll forfeit that shooting. Drop the warp field also because you can just motor your Rhino forward.

Terminator Squad w/ Psybolt Ammo
x1 Justicar w/ Warding Stave.
x1 Terminator w/ Storm Bolter & Daemonhammer
x1 Terminator w/ Storm Bolter & Force Halberd
x1 Terminator w/ Storm Bolter & Falcions
x1 Terminator w/ Storm Bolter & Brotherhood Banner

Tried and true method with Terminators is a 2:2:1 ratio of Swords:Halberds:Hammer. Falchions are a big no-no unless you're against horde armies, Stave is just too expensive to justify. Psybolt and the Banner are only worthwhile for a full 10 man squad. These guys also need a Psycannon.


Fast Attack (2)
"Warp Raptor Squad" Interceptor Squad w/ Psybolt Ammo
- "Aspiring Champion" (Justicar) w/ Master-Crafted Daemonhammer, Master-Crafted Storm Bolter
- x4 Raptors w/ Falchions
- x5 Raptors w/ Halberd

See above with pretty much everything else. Drop Falchions, Halberds, Master Craft. Bring Psycannons.

Stormraven Gunship
w/ Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, x4 Mindstrike Missiles, Hurricane Bolters. Psybolt Ammo & Warp Stabilization Field

Why would you ever put Warp Field on a flyer? It can already deep strike on it's own but it can move so fast that you wouldn't ever need to summon it.

Heavy Attack (2)
Nemesis Dreadknight w/ Gatling Psylenmcer, Nemesis Daemonhammer, and Personal Teleporter

Sword is better than Hammer. Hammer is a pointless upgrade since you're attacking at I4/Str 10 with just the Dreadknight fist. Psilencer is meh on the Dreadknight, but the Incinerator is way better.

"Havoc" Purgation Squad
"Aspiring Champion" Justicar w/ Daemonhammer
x4 "Havoc Chaos Space Marines" w/ Psycannon
+ Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Assault cannons, Storm Bolter, Psybolt Ammo, and Warp Stabilization Field.

What is the purpose of the hammer here? You want these guys at or inside 24" and blasting away with Psycannons.


Okay, so lets get down to Tactics.

The idea is to move quickly, and hit hard. The interceptors and Dreadknight are Jump- so they can move fast, Hammer of Wrath, and just be nasty.

Everything else can be Summoned by the Librarian. (hense the "Warp" in the title)

Got three troop slots, two of which are 10-man marines, the other is a 6-man (well, 6 w/ libby) of Terminators.

Psybolt guns are pretty much my version for the "Mark of Malal" - making the guns more deadly.
This list is very mediocre, to be blunt I'd give it a C-. Your army is very piece meal, with too many points in each individual squad.. You'll send in Interceptors and the Dreadknight first, the Rhino and Razorback drives behind and turn 2 you might see the Terminators and Raven. You'll be coming in 3 waves and your opponent can just pop open your two transports and the Knights aren't as scary anymore. Interceptors are too expensive and are going to die just like regular Space Marines.

You've just got too many upgrades, not enough bodies. And at 2500 points I don't see why you'd run a Brotherhood Champion. The Grand Master is great, as are the Inquisitors (except Karamazov and Valeria).

I guess my real lack of understanding is why are you using the Grey Knights codex for a "Chaos" army? They have their own Codex, and it's better suited to it.


Last edited by The_One; 06-21-13 at 05:27 PM.
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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old 06-21-13, 05:49 PM
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One's right on most of the tactical stuff, and so I'm going to leave it alone, and nitpick things from the fluff standpoint. I give you a B+ for the idea of using Grey Knights as Chaos... More like, it sounds like, you want to design a 'Renegade Marine' chapter more than you want a Chaos army... sort of like my own take on Thousand Sons. It's certainly doable... but I think you're pushing too hard to make it all fit.

I'd suggest taking Coteaz, and making him some sort of... i dunno. Warp Seer maybe? He doesn't get the powers your Librarian has (far too much there, but again, avoiding the listbuilding), and using him to allow you to start taking Cultits and Imperial Guard support in the form of henchmen.

I'm cool with the Interceptor Squads playing Warp Talons, but sadly, while they're doable, Grey Knights were never meant as a true Assault army. Psyammo and Psycannons flickering around the field are far stronger.

Using a Grand Master might be far stronger than a BroChamp because you gain access to Grand Strategy (scoring Dreadknights? yes please), as well as having Psychic Communion to guarantee that Raven gets into play.

Also, another option instead of using the Dreadknights, or together with, I'd love to see a Psyrifleman Dreadnought. Venerable is possible but VERY expensive, so usually the cheaper version is better, but 4 S8 shots? That's bloody brilliant most of the time.

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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old 06-22-13, 11:45 PM Thread Starter
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Okay everyone, I read a lot of comments.
Took a lot of advice.

And made myself a Second Draft!

Fluff:
this will be done up as a Chaos Space Marines army, and of Malal, cause Malal HATES the other Chaos Gods - pretty much one step more then he hates everything else. So - since Grey Knights has a Hatred of Chaos Daemons - seems to fit best.

And just an F.Y.I. "Psybolt Ammo" will be my "Mark of Malal" - which is why so many things have it.

----------------

HQ: (2)
"Chaos Sorcerer" (Librarian) w/ Warding Stave & Upgrade to lvl 3

"Kathal" (Grand Master) [Warlord] w/ Psycannon, Force Halberd

Troops: (3)
"Chaos Terminator Squad" [5-man] w/ Psybolt Ammo, Psycannon, & "Aspiring Champion" (justocar) w/ Force Halberd

x2 "Chaos Space Marines" [10-man] w/ Psybolt Ammo, x2 Psycannon, & "Aspiring Champion" (justicar) w/ Force Halberd
+ Rhino w/ Psybolt Ammo & x2 Storm Bolters

Fast Attack (2)
"Raptor Squadron" (Interceptors) [10-man] w/ Psybolt Ammo, x2 Psycannon, & "Aspiring Champion" (justicar) w/ Force Halberd

Stormraven Gunship w/ Psybolt Ammo, TL-Assault Cannon, TL-Heavy Bolter, Hurricane Bolter Sponsons & Mindshrike Missiles

Heavy Support: (3)
Dreadknight w/ Heavy Incinerator, x2 Doomfists, Personal Teleporter

"Havoc Squad" (Purgation Squad) [5 man] w/ x4 Psycannons.
+ Razorback w/ Psybolt Ammo & Twin-Linked Assault Cannons

"Chaos Dreadnought" w/ Psybolt Ammo, x2 Twin-Linked Autocannons
[Occasionally piggy-backed on the Stormraven]


I do hope that this works better, It should definately SHOOT much better then my failed "assault" list.

Feedback welcome!
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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old 06-23-13, 12:12 AM
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Hmm. Well, it's a nice, traditional list, and I like it, because it tends to work. A few thoughts:

The Rhinos with double Storm Bolters and Psy Ammo? utterly wasted, even for a 'mark'. Rhinos are there to 'run', not shoot. Us the points to give your DK a Greatsword. They're worth it.

I'm not sure about the Havocs. You already have alot of Rending Psycannons... a second Dreadknight to go in your face, or even another Rifleman would be better, I feel.

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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old 06-23-13, 03:26 AM
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What powers would you be taking on the Libby? I recommend Codex powers since MoT is boss and so is Warp Rift at the very least.
Mastery Level 3 I see tends to go wasted. Never needed it before, and I can't imagine many scenarios where you will.

Not sold on Psybolt on the Terminators. 20 pts for 4 guys isn't worth it.

You're missing out on all the Grenades! Psychotrokes, Rads. EBM's are cool but those other two are nice. I would also recommend Meltabombs since you never know when those will come in handy.

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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old 06-23-13, 04:05 AM Thread Starter
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THIRD Draft time.

Fluff:
this will be done up as a Chaos Space Marines army, and of Malal, cause Malal HATES the other Chaos Gods - pretty much one step more then he hates everything else. So - since Grey Knights has a Hatred of Chaos Daemons - seems to fit best.

"Mark of Malal" = Psybolt Ammo
Chaos Assault Cannon = Psycannon


Chapter-Master Kathal [Warlord] [Psyker Mastery 2]
"Malice's Blessing" - Master-Crafted Chaos Assault Cannon
Malice Falchions, Digital Weapons, Iron Halo, Terminator Armor
+ Assault, Krak, Psyk-Out, Rad and Psykotroke Grenades
(fake "Special Rule" - lets your units carrying Chaos Assault Cannons can allow it to be treated as either heavy 4, or Assault 2)

Chaos Warp Sorcerer [Psyker Mastery 3]
Malice Warding Staff, Storm Bolter, "Mark of Malal"
Assault Grenades, Krak Grenades, Psyk-Out Grenades, Psychic Hood, & Terminator Armor

Chaos Terminator Squad
- "Mark of Malal"
x1 Aspiring Terminator Champion w/ Malice Force Halberd & Storm Bolter
x1 Terminator w/ Malice Force Halberd & Chaos Assault Cannon
x3 Terminator w/ Malice Force Halberd & Storm Bolter

x2 Chaos Space Marines Squad
- "Mark of Malal"
x1 Aspiring Champion w/ Malice Force Halberd & Storm Bolter
x2 Marines w/ Chaos Assault Cannon
x7 Marines w/ Force Swords & Storm Bolters
+ Chaos Rhino
w/ x2 Storm Bolters & "Mark of Malal"

Warp Raptor Squad
- "Mark of Malal"
x1 Aspiring Raptor Sorcerer w/ Malice Warding Stave & Storm Bolter
x2 Raptors w/ Chaos Assault Cannon
x7 Raptors w/ Malice Force Swords & Storm Bolter

Havoc Squad
x1 Aspiring Champion w/ Malice Force Halberd & Storm Bolter
x4 Havoc's w/ Chaos Assault Cannon
+ Chaos Razorback
w/ Twin-Linked Assault Cannnon, & "Mark of Malal"

Choas Warp Daemon Engine
Chaos Space Marine Forgefiend/Maulerfiend | Games Workshop
{Jump Monstrous Creature}
Malice Doomfist, Heavy Incinerator, Malice Greatsword, Personal Teleporter

Chaos Stormraven Gunship
- "Mark of Malal"
w/ Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, Hurricane Bolter Sponsons, x4 Mindstrike Missile

Feedback welcome!
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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old 06-23-13, 08:03 AM
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What are you trying to accomplish with this list? Is fluff more important than power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarHammerman View Post
Chapter-Master Kathal [Warlord] [Psyker Mastery 2]
"Malice's Blessing" - Master-Crafted Chaos Assault Cannon
Malice Falchions, Digital Weapons, Iron Halo, Terminator Armor
+ Assault, Krak, Psyk-Out, Rad and Psykotroke Grenades
(fake "Special Rule" - lets your units carrying Chaos Assault Cannons can allow it to be treated as either heavy 4, or Assault 2)[

Chaos Warp Sorcerer [Psyker Mastery 3]
Malice Warding Staff, Storm Bolter, "Mark of Malal"
Assault Grenades, Krak Grenades, Psyk-Out Grenades, Psychic Hood, & Terminator Armor
Too many points sunk into HQ. You've taken more than necessary, and they're both less than efficient. Since you're doing a Chaos thing, I assume Inquisitorial stuff goes against fluff, so if you had to take a marine character I'd probably pick the Librarian, although he suffers from not being able to go in Rhinos.

Drop the Grand Master altogether. Drop the Warding Staff, it's too expensive and you really don't want him in melee against AP2 anyways- just take the sword. ML3 is OK, but not 100% necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarHammerman View Post
Chaos Terminator Squad
- "Mark of Malal"
x1 Aspiring Terminator Champion w/ Malice Force Halberd & Storm Bolter
x1 Terminator w/ Malice Force Halberd & Chaos Assault Cannon
x3 Terminator w/ Malice Force Halberd & Storm Bolter
I usually don't like these guys; they're too slow, but you need someone to walk with the Librarian, so they're OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarHammerman View Post
x2 Chaos Space Marines Squad
- "Mark of Malal"
x1 Aspiring Champion w/ Malice Force Halberd & Storm Bolter
x2 Marines w/ Chaos Assault Cannon
x7 Marines w/ Force Swords & Storm Bolters
+ Chaos Rhino
w/ x2 Storm Bolters & "Mark of Malal"
This is good, although I don't think you need the halberd on the justicars. They're cool for challenges, but there are other places you could spend the points

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarHammerman View Post
Warp Raptor Squad
- "Mark of Malal"
x1 Aspiring Raptor Sorcerer w/ Malice Warding Stave & Storm Bolter
x2 Raptors w/ Chaos Assault Cannon
x7 Raptors w/ Malice Force Swords & Storm Bolter
These aren't unusable per se, but they're still not that great. I'd drop them for more strike marines.

If you must have these guys, at least drop the Warding Stave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarHammerman View Post
Havoc Squad
x1 Aspiring Champion w/ Malice Force Halberd & Storm Bolter
x4 Havoc's w/ Chaos Assault Cannon
+ Chaos Razorback
w/ Twin-Linked Assault Cannnon, & "Mark of Malal"
These are expensive, but OK. They make pretty servicable AA and awesome firepower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarHammerman View Post
Choas Warp Daemon Engine
Chaos Space Marine Forgefiend/Maulerfiend | Games Workshop
{Jump Monstrous Creature}
Malice Doomfist, Heavy Incinerator, Malice Greatsword, Personal Teleporter
Greatswords are too expensive for what they bring, I'd rather bring more bodies. I know someone else told you to put them in, but I feel it's bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarHammerman View Post
Chaos Stormraven Gunship
- "Mark of Malal"
w/ Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, Hurricane Bolter Sponsons, x4 Mindstrike Missile
This is good, but the Multi-Melta is better than the Heavy Bolter, despite synergy with psybolt ammunition.

You also need a CC unit for the Raven to deliver, or else it's mediocre, I'd look to put 5 Purifiers or something in here. The terminators are better on the ground supporting the army and protecting the Librarian.

"Knowledge is knowing tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in fruit salad."

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