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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-08-11, 01:08 AM Thread Starter
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Default Rose tinted glasses?

Am I looking through them?

I came into Fantasy just after 5th, learnt those rules, then got Ravening Hordes, and loved little bits of them - like Wood Elf Waywatchers, and Dark Elf Executioners, but was nothing spectacular.

Then 6th edition came along - the Empire, and Orc Books were amazing, it pretty much blew me out of the water, so to speak. Then with more and more releases (High Elves, with Imrik, still one of the best models to date, if you ignore his pignose, Dark Elves, and arguably the best book to date, Hordes of Chaos (with Beasts of Chaos as well). Then there's Skaven, Wood Elves, and also, Vampires - the background of Zacharias is among my favourites, and I'd love to see him return. It was good, and then we got Tomb Kings, and then it started to go downhill from there - Breton's, mainly, were fairly poor until 7th, and even then were limited, and Ogre's just don't bare thinking about.

But Aside from Ogres standing out as a poorly designed idea not given the attention it deserved, EVERY ARMY WAS PLAYED IN IT'S OWN STYLE, and not OVERPOWERED.

Some things were risky - such as combat lords on dragons versus Cannons - but fuck me, if you played a one eyed bandit (I suppose in both meanings, actually), it was there ability rather than luck of the irish/dice to cause damage due to guess ranges. Then there were convoluted complicated rules such as Lapping Around - but were simple if you got your head around it.

Now, combine that with the days when White Dwarf contained awesome battle reports, the campaigns were interesting, and it contained informative articles that weren't just plugs for the latest model. Although Archaon was obviously the counter to that, but he was still without a doubt the hardest character in game.

Now, we get to 7th. We see some more retard worthy entries, with more interest being shown in the big flashy things rather than the shit which makes it tick. Steam Tank, Popemobiles, High Elf Dragon Flights, Shade Spam, Vampire Horde Casting, Lore of Light Slann, Daemons, DAEMONS, DAEMONS, DAEMONS, DAEMONS, HPA, Doomwheel, Wood Elves without any wood elves, Breton's becoming a ranged army, and of course, Dwarf THorek Gunlines.

And 8th just keeps spreading the gap even wider. 8th Edition Orcs is a worse book than 7th edition Skaven or 6th edition Ogres - they're "selling off" everything about Fantasy for some more pennies and more "40K nubs" to play a new game.

Now, 2 things - Am I looking through rose tinted spectacles? And Is the direction of Warhammer Ancient Battles a better place to start out?

It seems as if the design process is "let's fill out the flash things and then come back later with the boring stuff".

Is it time that the game developers actually said to sit down, and look at the game from the very basic point of view before developing it further.

Remove special rules, remove magic users and items, and just look at a General, a fighty hero, and then work out the difference in stats between a basic human to an elite human, from an elven militia to an elite elf etc?

I can provide the rules for some Warhammer Ancient Battles if some are interested - it's worth a read.

Am I just an old fogey sitting on my porch smoking a pipe in a rocking chair wearing rose tinted glasses moaning about the state of the world, or was there somethings which DRASTICALLY needed changing in the core ruleset that warranted the fuck up of 7th and the travesty of 8th?

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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-08-11, 03:12 AM
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well said vaz don't agree with you 100% but the most of it.

also can you post the rules for Warhammer Ancient Battles? or PM me

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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-08-11, 03:34 AM
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While I see your point in the kinda of "what the hell are they doing to my beloved game!?!?!" kinda way...I think the glasses are rose tinted though...and you need a new prescription.
I popped into Fantasy in 6th edition (maybe 5th circa 2000/2001 time frame) and I'm just starting to get into it after a foray into 40k.
As I remember, there was silliness in that edition too. Maybe not glaringly silly rule sets, but they were there. GW is also trying to simplify a lot of rules with 8th (getting rid of more army specific special rules and making them in the brb as standard rules). They are also pandering towards the young kid 40k crowd as that's there they are making their money now. And what makes the most money there now...armor (tanks, transports, big freaking things). So what do they have as powerful units in fantasy, big flashy shit. They are trying to pull that crowd over.
And, unfortunately, I do not see it stopping. In order to keep making money, GW will continue to shift was is the most powerful so that you have to keep buying new shit for your old armies. They will continue to release new army books with some shit rules so they can "fix it" next time and screw something else up to "fix" next time.
Every edition that will be released will be "shittier" than the last. Because you will only have the fond memories of the last system. You forget all the crap you hated at the time. When 9th comes out...8th will look better. And by he time 10th is out you will think 8 was pretty damn good.
If it's bothering you a lot...take a hiatus. Do ancients for a bit, come back in an edition. See whats changed.
But yes...rose tinted...simpler life...up hill both ways in the snow.

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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-08-11, 09:22 AM
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I think there's always going to be a case to rose tinted glasses. Hell I still think 2nd Ed is the best edition on 40K but if I really think back it was totally broken as a game. What made it the best edition for me was it was fun, and the people I played against were fun.

Now with 8th ed WHFB we're playing our Border Princes campaign and having a lot of fun. The rules work fairly well and the players are good. It's still a good game as it was back in 5th and 6th. I do miss the 5th Ed Bretonnian book for the variety it offered. But when we go throw down some games it's always fun either way. If you're finding the game less fun then maybe you need to think about who you play it with and why it's less fun


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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-08-11, 07:32 PM
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Honestly, the main problem I see with 8th edition is it doesn't work very well in competitive play, mainly due to magic and spammed Rare units. On the other hand, I have had extremely good games in casual settings, where people didn't attempt to exploit the magic phase or overpowered units, but instead attempted to make a balanced army for a fun game.

In that sense, I don't think most of the blame is really with the game itself, but with the players that obsess on having the most powerful army at all costs.

That said, the one aspect of 8th edition they did a terrible job of keeping balanced are the lores of Life and Death (and to a lesser extent, Shadow, which is a bit closer to being balanced). Even with IF being so easy to get, it's not as big a problem with most of the lores, because none of their spells are nearly as game breaking.

I mean, how is it possible for them to come up with the 'Purple Sun' spell, and not immediately realize that it made the Ogre Kingdoms army virtually unplayable, even with all the new bonuses they gave monstrous infantry? How did they look at lore of Life and not see how game breaking Lords like Teclis or the Slaan would become?

They really need to fix the magic phase. Until then, I think I'm just going to stick with casual games. My local game shop is actually considering stopping the Fantasy tournaments, because the newer players can't get into it. The more experienced players with cheesy lists keep tabling them within a few turns. So they've mainly been concentrating on 40k instead. It's a shame.

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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-08-11, 09:05 PM
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In our local shops (I play friendly games at one and attended a tournament at another), the problem spells (purple sun, dwellers, pit of shades) are normally not used. Of course, I play Lizardmen and I am more apt to be able to dispel some of them. Even at a tournament, I did not face any of the game breaking spells. Most of us feel like the battle should not hinge on one spell. Even if I take lore of Death, I will not use the purple sun spell. For one thing, I do not like the chances of it rolling back on my slann, not to mention taking out at least one TG along the way. The other death spells are good enough that if you know what you are doing, you do not need the purple sun spell.

Just my opinion.
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-08-11, 09:23 PM
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Personally, I feel that the gaming comunity itself has alot to do with the problems we're seeing...

In my area for example, when 8th ed came out, ALL! thes vets whined, and moaned and cursed about how bad 8th was going to be... It got to the point that the local GW store started telling these types off and booting them from the store! (we actually had one dick try and tell a potential new player that he'd be better off buying a 7th ed rulebook super cheap once 8th came out and to get all his stuff on-line as well...)

however, once 8th hit the shelves, and the WAAC's douchbags pissed-off and started cutting themselves in a corner, our store's atmosphere became very enjoyable and everyone started to really enjoy 8th for what it was; a fresh new style of game.
Plus, the staff did a solid job of trying to stop the shinanigans of abusing the game-breaking stuff like the insta-gib spells + power scroll crap.

Sadly, our local GW closed up so now the only place to play is flooded with arshole WAAC 'ard boyz types who think pulling 1st turn insta-wins makes them godly...
Thus, my opinion is that 8th is fairly decent and is a step in the right direction, when BOTH players respect eachother and play in the spirit of fun & good times.

Appologies for the slight rant,
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-08-11, 10:47 PM
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8th is ok in parts, some stuff works better than it used too but less seen armies that use different tactics tend to suffer even without the power combo's that most use these days.
The worst thing with warhammer over the last few editions is the easy access to every thing that's broken within the game via the internet.
When I first started gaming it was mainly a small group of freinds that learnt the rules and tactics as we went, now I could scan a few army lists on a few websites and pretty much find every broken combo for my list as could my mates which would bring the game down to who's army was the most broken.

As we progressed with the game we joined clubs and battled in the GW and in those confines you quickly learn which type of player you want to be and generally avoid players that you don't enjoy playing against but too often now with the game mostly decided in the list building part of the game most people just turn up with a cut and paste list with very little imagination in either the list or theme of the army and the games just become samey.

I remember when the army books promoted exploring the background of your army and provided alternative lists (Some were broken others really basic but it's still a good thing) and you could see 3 or more armies from the same book that were totally different in gameplay and design.

I think it's been a progressive decline in systems (although each edition has it's good points) combining with a general laziness both from the hobbyists who for the most part are happy for things to get easier and from GW who would rather make money than develop the character of their armies further (Which is their prerogative as a profit reliant company)and lets be honest it's a game where the aim is to win and if someone gives you a list that rarely loses but doesn't really have any soul to it would you say no thanks I'll spend a few hours trying to work out something for myself,

Added to this most of the people attracted to GW recently don't know any different as internet power lists are the norm and people who started gaming a long time back entered the hobby as much for the immersion in the hobby as for the game itself and White dwarf has only compounded the problem by becoming more of a buy this it's shiney catalogue where before it used to be a monthly mag that had loads of suplimental back ground and inspired people to make themed or different armies.

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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-11-11, 11:34 AM
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I'm not sure about a decline in the systems. I enjoy 5th edition 40K a lot and 8th for fantasy has been a similarly refreshing and fun experience so far. I've played a single tournament for it though and that did have certain composition restrictions on a few things (ineffectively done for the most part) and even then most the things people seem to grumble over didn't come up as issues.

I like and enjoy 8th for the gaming/hobby experience I originally started playing these games for in the first place. Most of the changes from 7th (and 6th) have appeared to me in most games to be for the better with the exception of the rules for buildings (in the watchtower scenario) and the time consuming and slightly irritating specific scenery rules. Although sometimes they have just been ignored.

I've yet to face the new orcs and goblins so really can't say at all how things much better or worse they are now. What I can say is that none of my games against the various armies which have been mostly made up of the more powerful races from 7th have been at all unpleasant. I don't think I've had any games that were over turn 1 although I accept it can happen.

As to the special characters and their various abuses such as Teclis, he was obscene in the last edition, this one does very little at all to change that.

I would say that the quality of the army books has dropped, particularly with respect to powercreep and game balance. 40K in particular has been suffering from this and part of the blame can be put down to all those cries for characterful units and abilities. Ever since the 4th edition Dark angel and Chaos books came out and were reviled for being lacklustre, dull and/or underpowered the writers have been on a head bend to make every codex more unique and 'characterful' than the last. The result of which has been some of the absolute worst background fiction I've ever read along with rules and units that have had me choking with venom. Even the codex writers I normally regard as extremely good at getting the balancing act right have fallen foul of this. (Notably in my eyes Phil Kelly and the space wolf codex which I would accept as good right up to the thunderwolves where I suffer horrible nerd-rage.) I have nothing nice to say about Matt Ward...nothing.

Last edited by Darkangeldentist; 03-11-11 at 11:37 AM.
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-11-11, 11:43 AM
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I really enjoyed the last edition until uber armies started coming out....DE hydras being so cheap. WOC being so cheese. HE being so damn good....

just put me off I liked it when there was balance and no one army was directly better, One competition army was just as viable as another and it came down to playing them well, now it seems to be find a comp army and use that. In otherwords from what I gather there will be pretty much 1 army in comps and that will be whatever is the newest one out....

heres a thought GW seeing as they know they will be bringing out new rules in a 4 year cycle why not do all the army books at the same time, nothing left behind everything is on a level playing field again. This will remove the staggard buying that they currently get but it would create a more playable atmosphere and thus get more bodies in the shops which would then create more sales overal....

one swift fix would be to get gamesday back to being "GAMESday" rather than "Massive games-workshop shop day"

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