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post #1 of 75 (permalink) Old 07-04-10, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
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Default Breaking 8th ed

WOW, am I dissapointed with 8th.... and it looked so very good for so long. There is just 1 rule in the book that Ive only just noticed, and which totally breaks the game; so much so that I think certain armies will be rubbished.

The rule is that steadfast is not removed by disruption.... or in plain language if the enemy gets into your flank they may remove your flank bonus but they never take your 'stubborn' for having more ranks then you do.
Earlier on I was playing against a unit of 50 lothian spearmen with caradryan and teclis in... that was bad enough, but finding out that my unit of 9 bulls in the flank might win once but cant posssible win the fight long enough to kill the enemy. It pretty much turned out that I needed every unit in my army to hit theat unit as 1 to have a chance of winning... and that wasnt going to happen.

The part where this breaks the game is rank spamming- I've already faced a unit with 13 ranks (goblins), but what happens if I put in a unit with 50 ranks onto the board..?
I play ogres so my thoughts went to gnoblar; a unit of 250 gnoblars would have 50 ranks and would be stuborn Ld9 with a reroll if I put a general and a BSB close by. I set them up sideways accross the board (a metre long unit) and the enemy is not going to get through them any time soon (1in36 chance of them breaking) and it only costs me 500pts. Thats 1/6th of my army at 3k and Ive just completely closed off 1 side of the board. Now Im not sure if skaven have a limit om the number of slaves they can take in a unit but for 1000pts they can completely block the board, 1 edge to the other with sideways slave units (or unit)... and sit behind with mortars, cannons and the like either firing indirectly over the slaves or just sit on hills and fire over normally, quite happy in the knowledge that almost nothing will ever do enough damage to the slaves to kill their way through them, and the chances of failing a Ld10 test with a re-roll is tiny (1in144- lose every round of combat in every game, even the first turn, and you should break once in every 12 games).


So any army that can do a gunline and access to 2-3pt models has an almost unbreakable unit to throw in the way of the enemy... but since thie book comes with access to alies potentially any army can do the same- I can just imagine 2000pts of empire gunline with a 1000pt gnoblar screen sitting accross the table from me... there would be very, very little many people could do against that.


So, for me it looks like either 7th edition or just avoiding certain armies/builds... Im thinking 7th.

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post #2 of 75 (permalink) Old 07-04-10, 06:37 PM
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yes stubborn is harsh but if you want a broken rule then look at stone throwers
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post #3 of 75 (permalink) Old 07-04-10, 06:42 PM Thread Starter
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stonethrowers are down to S3(9), so its not too bad for most things, although they'll certainly mess up units with some lucky rolling, but massive units of disposable troops that are all but unbreakable could be so broken as to end the game... gunlines with screens could well become the normal sight at tournies, but people have to have morals so low, and wallets so large to manage to pull it off...

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post #4 of 75 (permalink) Old 07-04-10, 06:44 PM
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I didn't think of that. O_O *processing* Well, I could do pretty much the same with Marauders, then put some Hellcannons in the back and watch them die. Oh and go forward with the Marauders, who have MoT and Blasted Standard BSB, plus a Warshrine just in case the gods aren't watching. Hmm... this looks like a problem...

I think GW will fix this pretty soon with a FAQ or something, like "the disruption resistance of Steadfast works as long as the flanking unit is Infantry" and it'd pretty much solve the whole issue (because lets face it, the principle of the rule makes sense, its the application thats fucked up). Either that, or any worthy tournament will put a cap on unit size, somewhere between 35 and 50 (I'm thinking of 40). Also, cleverly positioned impassable terrain in the deployment zone could screw up this idea because you simply can't put the unit on the table. And when you're playing a friendly game you could always tell the rule-abusing maggot to GTFO or something along that line.

I wouldn't worry too much if I were you, this is going to be settled in a few months at the very least. Until then you could always raise an eyebrow at units bigger than 40.

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post #5 of 75 (permalink) Old 07-04-10, 06:47 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong but a few of the new spells can break a unit and cause it to flee, making it just a huge pointsink taking up space on the table. Hit one big unit enough times with a spell like that and it's bound to fail at least once.

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post #6 of 75 (permalink) Old 07-04-10, 08:06 PM
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no 1 is 100% sure on that point as it is just a blasse remark made in passing and possibly not meant 2 be that
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post #7 of 75 (permalink) Old 07-04-10, 08:36 PM
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From what I've seen skaven are going to own this new ed, large units, check really good catapults, plagueclaw has big template and lack of save, check, great anti gunline options check, monstourous ogres check, monster, check.

BTW There is no maximum unit size on any normal skaven infantry

VCs are worse hit, the only units that are core are skeles ghouls and zombies, and zombies are nigh on unplayable now other than cheap raising, ghouls are killed by increased missiles and no save so skeles are the only option, and they are crazy overpointed now that fear has been nerfed and units are "braver". The magic danger also affects them more than any other race.

From what Ive seen I don't like this new edition much. I don't like the idea of regiments more than about 40 models, other than actual horde armies like skaven and goblins, as more than anything armies with point sinks can be really dull to play as/ play against

Last edited by Barnster; 07-04-10 at 08:40 PM.
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post #8 of 75 (permalink) Old 07-04-10, 08:57 PM Thread Starter
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I quite like the fear rules- you arent going to autobreak anyone but it will help you to win fights (and lets face it how often did skellies/zombies manage to actually win a fight)... now you just have to wait around for teh enemy to fail fear and then you hit them on a 3+, and they hit you on a 4+/5+ (damn zombie WS2).

@Cheese Meister- disruption does not remove steadfast... thats pretty much word for word from the BRB, its certainly stated as clear as that.

Caps on units might be good, but I think it'll really affect the way some units work- better would be errata'ing it to be 'rank bounus' not ranks, so if you hit a unit of 50 ranks with a unit of 20 then they wont be stubborn anymore (both have rank bonus of 3), doesnt help my ogres much though).

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post #9 of 75 (permalink) Old 07-04-10, 09:47 PM
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Skeles would often win if there was a vamp in the unit. Ogres are going to steam roller small units, but are going to get roadblocked by big tarpit units.

Large units of ogres will start appearing, more than 4~5 anyway. Scrap launchers are going to see more use though
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post #10 of 75 (permalink) Old 07-04-10, 10:19 PM
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was talking about the stone throwers s9/3 remark as it's just talking about in general hence why it's possibly a typo
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