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post #1 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-05-09, 12:13 AM Thread Starter
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Default ASF and High Elves: Opinions

Now, whether it's balanced or not, I feel this is gamebreaking and against certain factions causes them to play in very underhanded/crap ways in order to be competitive.

Now in Warhammer, I've always been of the opinion that there are two major tactical aspects to the movement phase, the movement phase being the most tactical aspect of Warhammer. There is the maneuvering for a charge aspect, to ensure you get the devastating first blow and there is the flanking/surrounding aspect...

I feel, that having ASF for an entire army, basically negates half of the tactics of the game and as a result, I've seen elves just run forwards at top speed in a wreck less manner which just breaks a lot of the enjoyment of the game for me. If GW didn't see how game breaking this was then they really have fallen off of the path since I started collecting some 14 years ago.

This ability, is a rarely available/given ability which often has one item/one special character per entire army with it, due to the power of the ability.

Now with the tomb kings the game is winnable, as I can shoot the swordsmen apart before they reach me, but with skaven for example, the game becomes near unwinnable, I lost combats where I had hit the swordsman group from 3 sides at once and still lost the combat (20 swordsmen 23 attacks doing 11-12 kills on average, with me attacking back with about 6 attacks....killing one). This was a simultaneous 3 unit charge in one turn, and the sad thing, is that due to ASF for HE it's more than possible to win such an engagement against horde armies. So I'm left with the other option, of spamming warlocks and ratling guns or getting mopped.....fun.

Anyways, what are other people's opinions on High Elves, un-biast if possible rather than self motivated :D.
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post #2 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-05-09, 12:53 AM
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I don't play Fantasy, but I've enough knowledge to be able to play, if I owned an army. it seems to me though, that it's not that different to 40k in this aspect however. The High Elves are in many ways the Space Marines - the baseline for other armies, the most balanced, and the game designers' coup.

It also seems that the armies are heading in this general direction - the Dark Elves getting their Eternal Hatred rule, Warriors and Daemons of Chaos being generally great...and being slightly more flexible in terms of competitive variations. HEs don't have to be run that way to beat other armies, it's a choice by the player, whereas the older lists, Skaven, Beasts of Chaos, Brettonia, etc, have to be run a particular way to compete with the newer armies. Slightly unfair, yes, but, in the medium term (long term of course being into the next edition) better overall if it brings more variety into the game.

Like I said though, thats from the outside looking in, I've a different perspective than most if not all Fantasy players...
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post #3 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-05-09, 01:23 AM
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Its no where near as much of a problem as you suggest. Try some better tactics. The following things really hurt elves:

-impact hits
-shooting, warmachines
-magic missiles
-charging with highly durable units

Skaven have probably the MOST efficient way of dealing with things like swordsmasters - warp lightning. You pay points to have exactly str5 hits, that is just enough for 2+ to wound and to negate their 5+ save. It's ideal. Same with jezzails. Obviously ratling guns and warpfire throwers are right up there too.

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post #4 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-05-09, 01:49 AM
 
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I don't think almost every unit for HE should be ASF, imo they need to limit it to either core choices, or rare/special choices.
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post #5 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-05-09, 02:00 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaul View Post
Its no where near as much of a problem as you suggest. Try some better tactics. The following things really hurt elves:

-impact hits
-shooting, warmachines
-magic missiles
-charging with highly durable units

Skaven have probably the MOST efficient way of dealing with things like swordsmasters - warp lightning. You pay points to have exactly str5 hits, that is just enough for 2+ to wound and to negate their 5+ save. It's ideal. Same with jezzails. Obviously ratling guns and warpfire throwers are right up there too.
You missed the part where I said I charged his flank, rear and front simultaneously and still lost, but apparently a 3 way charge at once is bad tactics? I'm sorry but no other unit would be able to win in that situation.

Not all armies have 'durable' units, many armies, hoard armies especially have no high toughness/high armour units which will survive to fight back. For dwarves against elves it's fine, dwarves are designed to strike last. Skaven are not.

I also mentioned 'without resorting to cheap tactics'. I could spam warlocks and ratling guns and just anihilate his army before it gets to me, but that isn't in the least fun. There isn't much that can be done to the skaven that isn't just blasting them which will balance skaven against HE.

Tomb Kings it's basically spam arrows/catapaults and hope to kill units like swordmasters before they make it to you, because once they do you aren't going to kill them unless they're shrunk significantly, even Ushabti have trouble against swordmasters at what, a quarter of the price per model? It's ridiculous. I have broken even against SM with a flank charging Ushabti/Spearskele combo and eventually lost that combat. White lions are hardly better S6 always strike first? Least they only have one attack.

The main gripe I have, is with elves there's no penalty if you get charged. If you cover your flanks you can wrecklessly move forwards without fear.

It's complete and utter tripe. The problem I have with your 'solution' to the skaven problem, is skaven have a single way to beat HE, but this only way for victory guarantees them victory, if they don't do it, they're guaranteed defeat, rock paper scissors anyone? Complete and utter stupidity on behalf of GW.

Edited: Please do not post individual costs of models, it is against forum rules - squeek

Last edited by squeek; 05-05-09 at 11:06 AM.
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post #6 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-05-09, 02:17 AM
 
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If you charged him in the back, in the flank, AND in the front, there is no way in hell you should have lost. Yes he will strike first but you will outnumber him, and have a rear bonus(+2), and flank bonus(+1) and a rank bonus (presumably +3). I can't remember off the top of me head though if the bonuses for Rear and Flank charges stack. And you would also negate his rank bonus for charging him in the flank and rear. You are already up +5 or +6(depending on if Flank/Rear bonuses stack) in Combat Resolution. Unless you charged with Skinks or Goblins, I don't see Strength 3 Elves killing 6 guys, let alone every model in the front rank of three DIFFERENT units. There is no way you should have lost that combat, I just don't see that happening.

As for High Elves and Always Strike First, I think it is a balanced rule. High Models are a little bit more expensive because of it. It's not as bad as people seem to think it is.
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post #7 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-05-09, 03:31 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grik View Post
If you charged him in the back, in the flank, AND in the front, there is no way in hell you should have lost. Yes he will strike first but you will outnumber him, and have a rear bonus(+2), and flank bonus(+1) and a rank bonus (presumably +3). I can't remember off the top of me head though if the bonuses for Rear and Flank charges stack. And you would also negate his rank bonus for charging him in the flank and rear. You are already up +5 or +6(depending on if Flank/Rear bonuses stack) in Combat Resolution. Unless you charged with Skinks or Goblins, I don't see Strength 3 Elves killing 6 guys, let alone every model in the front rank of three DIFFERENT units. There is no way you should have lost that combat, I just don't see that happening.

As for High Elves and Always Strike First, I think it is a balanced rule. High Models are a little bit more expensive because of it. It's not as bad as people seem to think it is.
Allow me to explain with statistics:

Swordsmasters:
Str: 5
Att: 2

Unit 5x4 Grid:
= 5+3+3 Swordsmasters attacking
= 22 attacks +1 champ = 23 attacks total.
They got 11 kills. (average for them in this case would be 10.0188).

I have 6 on the front and 5 on either side, for a total of 16, I lose 11 of my models giving me 5 left to fight back, with a 50% chance to wound and hit.
I will kill on average one elf and I did.

So let's do a tally of combat resolution:
Me:
Ranks: 3
Rear: 2
Flank: 1
Kills: 1
Standard: 1
Outnumber : 1
Total: 9

Him:
Kills: 11
Standard: 1

His victory: 2

NOTHING else in the game would have survived so many charges at once. This ASF rule, basically gave this elf unit the advantage as if it had just charged 3 units simultaneously . It also pretty much completely negates cavalry.

As for using chariots to counter High Elves? Good luck on making that cost effective.

I have skaven and tomb kings, My chariots cost enough each so I need to kill 3 swordsmasters to get that back, impact hits at d3 S4....lol.

This new rule is complete shite, just admit it .

If they were spears they would be strength 3, but they're swordsmasters, they have two attacks and are strength 5 and don't cost much for it. Their ASF rule applies to their great weapons also naturally.....

It's just a case of Gamesworkshop tailoring the rules to sales again, make a popular team powerful so they can up the sales like they did with space marines for awhile (or still do?).

Try using any of the armies that are either lightly armoured or cavalry based against elves, your only option is ranged weaponry, fie upon you if you don't have that....

FYI Lizardmen have woeful initiative and lower speed than elves, they would usually always strike last anyways, they are MEANT to strike last, so they are hardly a relevant means of comparison to whether the new rule is/isn't balanced.

What this ultimately means, is I will just refuse to play skaven versus HE at all, period. No point, it's either his fun or mine and I'm not playing games that end up like that.

Edited: Do not post individual points costs of models, it is against forum rules - squeek

Last edited by squeek; 05-05-09 at 11:09 AM.
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post #8 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-05-09, 04:57 AM
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Being a High Elf player myself, I completely agree with you. ASF as an army-wide rule is more of a burden than anything else to HE players that actually move their units. Obviously, GW didn't give us that rule for free, so I'm paying for ASF on units that I have no intention of ever getting into close combat (Mages, Archers, RBT Crewmen, etc.) so my army is weighed down by points I neither wanted to or needed to spend. I could understand ASF on our special troops, even as a purchasable option, but not from citizen levy-troops like Spearelves and Archers; I know elves are supposed to be fast, but giving ASF to a model whose profession is something other than total war just astounds me.

Without upgrades, I pay 110 points for a unit of 10 Archers that rarely win their points back. 110 points for 10 models without armor, any special rules other an a highly situational one and ASF!!! So far, their kill record is two Sarus, one Skink, three Black Guard skeletons and one or two Zombies; obviously, not all in one game. I only take Archers to fill out my Core requirements.

I'm not saying I don't enjoy playing with my High Elves, because I do. All I'm saying is that I'd sacrifice ASF in order to put a few more troops on the field. Also, I don't want to pay so goddamn much for a scroll caddy.


Last edited by Captain Galus; 05-05-09 at 05:00 AM.
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post #9 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-05-09, 05:16 AM
 
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I wasn't talking about my Lizardmen, even though they are tough. And I do apologize, against Swordmasters with strength 5 it is very deadly. But for basic troops or the majority of Elves who are strength 3, I really haven't seen it make that much of a difference. It's more of an annoyance.
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post #10 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-05-09, 06:57 AM Thread Starter
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It may just be that the current craze for HE around here is max out swordmasters....heh

Sorry for the rant...I just find it to be gamebreaking in terms of the tactical maneuvering aspects of gameplay. For some armies it means very little, for others, i.e. skaven, it invalidates an entire aspect of them (close combat for example).
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