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post #51 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-24-09, 11:12 AM Thread Starter
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Gunlines require an opponant to deploy across the entire battlefield and are easily defeated when an opponant concentrates their deployment in a small area.

Dwarven gunlines are not complained about, because anyone can do it and anyone can counter it. T4 high armour save units aren't exactly rare and neither are armies with masses of shooting, in fact most armies are capable of such a tactic.

You could use your own archers and spam them against his gun spam, you outrange the dwarves by 6" also and IIRC have 1 higher bs but one lower to wound, so roughly even battle there, you have plenty of options to counter the dwarven gunline, even a dragon will be able to get there relatively unmolested if used correctly and rape his entire army in the face. Tell me of my options for countering a high elf ASF force.....not many . I could spam bowmen, but they won't kill enough before the distance is closed. My stupid tomb guard cost almost the same as swordsmasters too, yay. Of course you love ASF, it gives you the chance to rape everyone elses face.
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post #52 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-24-09, 11:21 AM
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Its just a little silly the way ASF is nearly either auto-win or auto-lose for HE in some situations.

HE play O&G.. all O&G tricks are for getting extra movement to steal charges which ASF laughs at

HE play gun line... ASF doesnt get near to changing anything. Shooting kills overly expensive T3 models and laughs at HE


I like it when you build a decent army list and it will do well vs all enemies (although you might need to change tactics a little), but ASF cancels that out.

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post #53 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-24-09, 11:25 AM Thread Starter
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I like how I read constantly about HE players whining about their low toughness and low armour. Yet my TK army has the same toughness, less armour usually and often a similar cost. There are many other armies with crap armour and low toughness. Empire are T3 and lower armour in general too, so hey....maybe they need ASF to represent their loyalty to the emperor, cause loyal people are faster 8-)

As an addendum, high elves would strike first most of the time anyways, due to their high initiative and above normal movement rate. After taking the charge, they strike first anyways and will mince many forces up, so I don't see the problem and why ASF solved this.

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post #54 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-24-09, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
whining
I know someone else who does this too. A lot. Comparing high elf toughness and armour to TK toughness and armour takes the discussion way out of context, and you really should know it.

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post #55 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-24-09, 02:23 PM
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Loyal People are faster? You on fucking crack? I'm loyal to most things, but if I was in a scrap, I'd fight at the same speed as always.

Well wayhay, guess where your theory falls down -

T4 High AS, not exactly rare. But also, tell me, do all these units have +1 to hit, and Str 4 AP 24" shots?

Anyone can do gunlines you say? TOO FUCKING RIGHT GO CHAOS MORTAL GUNLINES!! WOOHOO. That's half a dozen units of Marauder Cavalry with Javelins or Throwing Axes, and 2 Hellcannons whoohooo!

Oh, and aren't you forgetting something about Tomb Guard? They have Killing Blow. Or is that not right? I admit, killing blow is shite. But then again, Tomb Guard are shite in any case. Tomb Kings are a shooting army. Look at their combat troops. State Troopers, with a 5+ Armour Save. The only efficient combat units are Ushabti, Tomb Scorpions and Chariots. But then look at the cheapness of their Archers, Two Shooting attacks per turn, and Twin SCC's, that's a fuck load of shots. High Elves? Infantry have T3 and a 5+ AS? I think that's right? Should be easy prey, right? But NO. They have ASF! It's so broken I still decide to Attack them! As in full on charges. Yeah, no. Not use my advantage of range to bypass ASF, but just actually attack. No sympathy mate, those a pathetic excuses as to why it might be broken.

Gunlines, funnily enough, don't require a wide spread. Requires a concentration, with a shielding unit, and a a bloody big hammer unit, with ideally +3 SCR, fast movement, and high armour/toughness to break through.

Sheild the rest behind it - or, do as you do, and leave your entire army open to an attack, and then when the counter charges hit home, you're left high and dry with your flank exposed, and noone to counter his flank. Oh whoops, didn't think of that?

Dwarven gunline ARE complained about. Thorek Gunline? No, never? It's harder to break than a fucking concrete walnut.

Also, let's do the math - IIRC, Sword Master have WS5 - correct. That's hitting on 3's. Wound on 2's. So with the... let's see, Cavalry are Base 25, Swordmaster 20. So for the 3 knights in the lance, that's 75, and leaves 4 Swordmasters. That's... Um 8, maybe 9 if you wing the Champion. Wound on 2's? Fair dos. 6/6 wounds. You forgot the 4+ Armour Save, that's 3 wounds at most, leaving you with a Knight Champion, and in a 9 strong knightly unit, that's another 4 Knights who hit home, so 5 Attacks, hit on 4's, wound on 2's, ignore armour. You cause 3 wounds, equal combat. If they're as they should be in a small line supporting, rather than as an anchor (already gone through the argument of line over ranks - paying 135points for extra ranks is not a nice idea, when you can have another 9 swordmasters doing something), then you win - 3 wounds, versus 3 wounds, cancel out, against outnumber - 12 US on the knights compared to 9 US of the Swordmasters, then there's banners - not sure why a flanking unit to support a spear/white lion anchor would have a banner, as you only recieve said benefit once, but that's perhaps +2 for the knights already, then 2 ranks, against 1, so +3 for the knights. However you swing it, those Swordmasters are taking a Ld5 Break Test.

And let's look at the Chaos Knights - Mark of Nurgle, and Banner of Rage, costs 275points. You charge a swordmaster unit - that's 12/13 attacks hitting on 4's, so there's 6/7 hits. Wounds on 3's, so that's 4 wounds, save on 3's... Wow 1 UNSAVED WOUND FUCKING OVERPOWERED JESUS CHRIST GET THAT SHIT OUTTA HERE. Okay, return attacks - 12 Attacks, hit on 3's, so there are 8 hits, wound on 2's, 6/7 wounds, no armour saves. 8 Attacks, hit on 4's, so 4 hits, wound on 3's, 3 wounds, save on 6's, max of 1 armour save, so give them benefit of the doubt - so 2 unsaved wounds. So overall we are +8/9, against +1 from wounds.

So to give benefit of the doubt to swordmasters - 7 additional wounds were caused. Now, we have SCR - no ranks, 1 standard, and 8 members. For equal points costs, you'd have 18 Swordmasters, but we gave them Full Command, as you're rather keen on the whole "SWORDMASTARS IS ANCHOR UNIT YO" argument, so -30 I think for Full Command, so that leaves 16 Swordmasters. If 8 are killed, that's leaves... 8? So no outnumber by anyone. Banner? Both cancel. Ranks? Swordmasters had +2, so we're looking a +5 in favour of Chaos Knights - so -5 Ld to Swordmasters leaves them the chance to pass the leadership test only 1 out of 6 attempts, without modifiers, but even with a General and BSB nearby, that's Leadership 5, and a reroll, resulting in passing it effectively 40 ish%.

So... Bretonnian Knights... Heavy Cavalry check. Chaos Knights? Heavy Cavalry check. Aww shucks, there goes that argument.

Ushabti? Aren't they for mauling Heavy Armour? Haha got to be kidding me. Don't even give me an argument where you say that a Str 6 T4 unit should go against Str 5 T3 5+ AS unit, yeah? Bright idea.

3-4 Simultaenous Flank and Rear charges against Swordmasters? Haha, I've already proved you only need a heavy cavalry charge to the front. If you want heavy Cavalry to the rear and flank, even better. Feed them shite troops, you know you're gonna get fucked.

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post #56 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-24-09, 07:15 PM
 
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Sword Masters are Ws6.

I am a High Elf player, IMO no army is broken, some units are a bit wrong (like Sword masters, lol) but what ever you opponant puts on the table, it can be countered.

TK are crap, but you can replenish your ranks, if my elves die, they stay dead!

If you want a perfect army for killing HE get a skink based lizardman army or WE. Although I've lost to an empire army, because they just fell back when I charged, then shoot me with another unit.

As for ASF, if the high elves don't kill the entire front rank of an enemy unit, they will take alot of damage in return, however if you want to bypass ASF take units that inflict impact hits (TK chariots spring to mind, )
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post #57 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-24-09, 11:39 PM
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firstly i would just like to say that aside from the harsh words and *shudders* whining...
that i has actually been helpful for countering asf or just tactics in general so just thought i would put that out there..

more on the topic though i can find ASF a little annoying..i understand that in reality they are shite without and i dont want to be called a newb and spammed for disagreeing but for example..my chaos marauders are frenzied so they charge with flails/great weapons, normally YES your dead sucker..but no. they have ASF so now my weapon(s) that kind of depends on going first (esecially on marauders) is useless. not saying its unfair though. so even though i know that they need it. it still pisses me off when it just owns my face, and as WoC i really have no option but to suck it up and fight them.

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post #58 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-26-09, 11:06 AM Thread Starter
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Loyal People are faster? You on fucking crack? I'm loyal to most things, but if I was in a scrap, I'd fight at the same speed as always.

Well wayhay, guess where your theory falls down -

T4 High AS, not exactly rare. But also, tell me, do all these units have +1 to hit, and Str 4 AP 24" shots?

Anyone can do gunlines you say? TOO FUCKING RIGHT GO CHAOS MORTAL GUNLINES!! WOOHOO. That's half a dozen units of Marauder Cavalry with Javelins or Throwing Axes, and 2 Hellcannons whoohooo!

Oh, and aren't you forgetting something about Tomb Guard? They have Killing Blow. Or is that not right? I admit, killing blow is shite. But then again, Tomb Guard are shite in any case. Tomb Kings are a shooting army. Look at their combat troops. State Troopers, with a 5+ Armour Save. The only efficient combat units are Ushabti, Tomb Scorpions and Chariots. But then look at the cheapness of their Archers, Two Shooting attacks per turn, and Twin SCC's, that's a fuck load of shots. High Elves? Infantry have T3 and a 5+ AS? I think that's right? Should be easy prey, right? But NO. They have ASF! It's so broken I still decide to Attack them! As in full on charges. Yeah, no. Not use my advantage of range to bypass ASF, but just actually attack. No sympathy mate, those a pathetic excuses as to why it might be broken.

Gunlines, funnily enough, don't require a wide spread. Requires a concentration, with a shielding unit, and a a bloody big hammer unit, with ideally +3 SCR, fast movement, and high armour/toughness to break through.

Sheild the rest behind it - or, do as you do, and leave your entire army open to an attack, and then when the counter charges hit home, you're left high and dry with your flank exposed, and noone to counter his flank. Oh whoops, didn't think of that?

Dwarven gunline ARE complained about. Thorek Gunline? No, never? It's harder to break than a fucking concrete walnut.

Also, let's do the math - IIRC, Sword Master have WS5 - correct. That's hitting on 3's. Wound on 2's. So with the... let's see, Cavalry are Base 25, Swordmaster 20. So for the 3 knights in the lance, that's 75, and leaves 4 Swordmasters. That's... Um 8, maybe 9 if you wing the Champion. Wound on 2's? Fair dos. 6/6 wounds. You forgot the 4+ Armour Save, that's 3 wounds at most, leaving you with a Knight Champion, and in a 9 strong knightly unit, that's another 4 Knights who hit home, so 5 Attacks, hit on 4's, wound on 2's, ignore armour. You cause 3 wounds, equal combat. If they're as they should be in a small line supporting, rather than as an anchor (already gone through the argument of line over ranks - paying 135points for extra ranks is not a nice idea, when you can have another 9 swordmasters doing something), then you win - 3 wounds, versus 3 wounds, cancel out, against outnumber - 12 US on the knights compared to 9 US of the Swordmasters, then there's banners - not sure why a flanking unit to support a spear/white lion anchor would have a banner, as you only recieve said benefit once, but that's perhaps +2 for the knights already, then 2 ranks, against 1, so +3 for the knights. However you swing it, those Swordmasters are taking a Ld5 Break Test.

And let's look at the Chaos Knights - Mark of Nurgle, and Banner of Rage, costs 275points. You charge a swordmaster unit - that's 12/13 attacks hitting on 4's, so there's 6/7 hits. Wounds on 3's, so that's 4 wounds, save on 3's... Wow 1 UNSAVED WOUND FUCKING OVERPOWERED JESUS CHRIST GET THAT SHIT OUTTA HERE. Okay, return attacks - 12 Attacks, hit on 3's, so there are 8 hits, wound on 2's, 6/7 wounds, no armour saves. 8 Attacks, hit on 4's, so 4 hits, wound on 3's, 3 wounds, save on 6's, max of 1 armour save, so give them benefit of the doubt - so 2 unsaved wounds. So overall we are +8/9, against +1 from wounds.

So to give benefit of the doubt to swordmasters - 7 additional wounds were caused. Now, we have SCR - no ranks, 1 standard, and 8 members. For equal points costs, you'd have 18 Swordmasters, but we gave them Full Command, as you're rather keen on the whole "SWORDMASTARS IS ANCHOR UNIT YO" argument, so -30 I think for Full Command, so that leaves 16 Swordmasters. If 8 are killed, that's leaves... 8? So no outnumber by anyone. Banner? Both cancel. Ranks? Swordmasters had +2, so we're looking a +5 in favour of Chaos Knights - so -5 Ld to Swordmasters leaves them the chance to pass the leadership test only 1 out of 6 attempts, without modifiers, but even with a General and BSB nearby, that's Leadership 5, and a reroll, resulting in passing it effectively 40 ish%.

So... Bretonnian Knights... Heavy Cavalry check. Chaos Knights? Heavy Cavalry check. Aww shucks, there goes that argument.

Ushabti? Aren't they for mauling Heavy Armour? Haha got to be kidding me. Don't even give me an argument where you say that a Str 6 T4 unit should go against Str 5 T3 5+ AS unit, yeah? Bright idea.

3-4 Simultaenous Flank and Rear charges against Swordmasters? Haha, I've already proved you only need a heavy cavalry charge to the front. If you want heavy Cavalry to the rear and flank, even better. Feed them shite troops, you know you're gonna get fucked.

LEARN TO PLAY.
ASF is broken and majority agree. It's a blanket rule that negates the majority of the game.

Your calculations fail, like you do. I play with high elves and the reality is, it's crap and not worth playing, watching even good players move forwards without a care in the world for being charged, ASF was a very rare often exclusively one item per army ability, HE got it for their whole army and you don't think that is broken?

I hardly think that TK are a shooting army with Bs2 5+ to hit, unless you take Khalida, but special characters opens up a whole new kettle of fish.....

You and most high elf players whine about how vulnerable your precious elves are without even considering how weak some armies units are, my spearmen cost not much less than your swordsmasters, have similar stats yadda yadda. As for the ressurection of my undead, 1d6 skeletons ressurected will hardly get me anywhere, especially considering how easy TK magic is to counter for most teams, esp HE....

As for TK chariots, D3 S4 hits are crap, esp for the 'bargain' price of 45 points a model, they rarely survive to get into combat before being shot down by bolt throwers in quick fashion.

I also said MANY armies can make gunlines, not all, you fail, once again, nice way to misread what I wrote.

Did I mention a mark of nurgle and all of those other wonderful upgrades you've piled on to units? No I was comparing two stock units to one another at base value, we can get into items but then it becomes an endless cycle of theory crafting, you clearly spend too much time here and too little time actually playing, I would love to beat your face in, but seeing as its the internet I'll have to settle for ignoring your retarded ass.

ASF was a quick fix to an army which needed help, rather than a more comprehensive solution which actually made sense, not to mention just how much the ASF contradicts warhammer tactics.

Any if any other infantry unit in the entire game was charged by chaos knights they would die without doing a thing, not a draw/close to draw. Then there's the fact that the entire high elf army completely negates medium cavalry, but I suppose its perfectly acceptable for an entire segments of units to be made completely useless against one army. I spose it's fine for one army to completely negate all infantry in an army aside from heavy infantry. Only heavy infantry (thinking lizards/dwarves here) are capable of holding up against swordsmasters, or cavalry, but cavalry are generally speaking double the price of swordsmasters, and no, tomb guard can more than hold their own against all other armies in certain roles.

In your scenario of 3 swordsmasters dead and 3 brettonian knights dead, that leaves a situation of 72 points lost for the brettonians and 45 lost for the swordsmasters. As for the 'blocks of SM are stupid' line, I've seen SM used successfully in that way more than once and indeed with the HE special rules for more special units they are often quite common in larger units. TK archers are indeed not the answer to anything and TK are definately not a 'shooting' team. You assume that the double shots is a norm for TK, with a high liche priest against HE you will probably get 1-2 extra rounds of shooting, which means no extra archer shots and one extra shot per SSC, but in reality it usually ends up 1 extra SSC shot. I hardly consider 3 rounds of shooting (HE movement 10) with a 33% chance to hit and 50% chance to wound and then again a 33% chance to save (of 100 archers that's 33 hits, 15 wounds and 10 actual wounds in a turn and I'm yet to see 100 archers in a game...) 50 being the common number in TK shooting armies giving you 5 wounds in a turn, total of 15 before the enemy has closed with you, if you have spammed swordsmasters (a smart decision versus most armies) you will then enjoy a jolly good romping of their entire army. TK quite simple, given equal skill versus elves cannot compete, the elves can make a superior combat force, combined with massive amounts of magic denying all TK magic and in addition blasting away with their own. If we go into the periphery, we quickly see how ridiculous it is and we also begin to see that your HE die, because you suck as a player and recieve constant pwnings with them in spite of their ASF ruling. It also becomes blatantly apparent that you've never played TK before.

Against any other armies comparable unit stat wise to Swordsmasters, Ushabti will rip them apart, they cost 65 points per model, yet against virtually the entire elven army one would face are completely useless.

Like I've said before, there are two tactical aspects to warhammer combat, the charge (getting it first) and direction of attack, elves have ASF, so half of the combat tactics are gone, makes it a great beginner/kiddie army at least, finally elves are reasonably fast, so the direction aspect is somewhat minimized. GW has essentially replicated the space marines into warhammer and begun making warhammer the new brainless game to play. I should do a few videos of battle reports against HE with my army against veteran players to proove just how mindless their movement phase is, it's a simple "move maximum 10"" every turn movement phase without any thought of the consequences of being charged, long as you have enough units to cover the flanks with HE you're good to move recklessly to your hearts content.

For the record TK rely heavily on getting the charge, although it's magic + movement. Their charge range with magic is generally speaking 12, 15 for units like ushabti, 24 for cavalry, so they have a very large threatening radius...their weakness and low armour make this a necessity. Combine this with the premium you pay for unbreakable (who cares they die like flies) and fear (of which most armies around atm seem to be highly resilient to, cause it themselves also or are immune).

Edited: Insults removed - squeek

Last edited by squeek; 05-26-09 at 06:13 PM.
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post #59 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-26-09, 03:11 PM
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post #60 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-26-09, 03:22 PM
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NK, is there something you aim to propose, or are you only in the mindset to state your opinion? Though a bit rough, Vaz did pose an argument toward your view; your only retort was to insult him... Not cool, man.

What you need to do is further your beliefs through strong, civil argument. That way, we can potentially resolve the situation or at least aid anyone else in a similar predicament.




Now to carry on with attempting to make this constructive, you state that ASF is broken, such as in the High Elves. Especially in the case of Sword Masters.

You say that because any and all charge bonuses are effectively negated.

While I do agree that getting the charge is all-important, it's not necessarily always the game-winning action. There are ways to topple a powerhouse unit.

Let's ignore ASF for a moment here. I'd like you to visit squeek's "Versus..." articles in the Warhammer Tactics section so you can see the variety of ways in which you can attempt to bring down the same situation.

Now, let's get a little further with an example, shall we? How do you bring down the Shade Deathstar? They're wonderfully hard to hit with anything in the shooting phase, they can ASF with Great Weapons, they are armed with repeater crossbows and are nasty when charged, and magic is often a joke against them. Frankly, I'm not sure how I'd manage that one. But I'd probably figure that there are ways to win the round overall [not necessarily a combat with them].


You say that High Elves can just move forward recklessly.

I disagree here. I don't like seeing my units get cut down from War Machines and Missile fire or Magic.

Do recall that all Elf units, regardless of faction, are T3 and typically have a poor armor save. That means that Elf units can crumple relatively easily, especially considering that they tend to be few in number. I don't just mean from shooting, either. Remember that, when charged, the charging unit will still receive it's charge bonus(es), making most Heavy Cavalry, for instance, still rather potent [a -2 AS on Empire Knightly Orders still means their Armor Save is a 3+].

Hence, caution should be used when maneuvering Elves, so as to optimize their abilities while minimizing their losses.


You say Sword Masters are broken.

I know I took this one a little far, but run with me on this.

I agree that these guys and ASF is a nasty duo. And I know what kind of damage they can unleash given the proper circumstances. I wouldn't call them broken, though.

The problem with Sword Masters is that they have no defensive attributes, hence why "... High Elf players always complain..." about their toughness. Now, ideally they wouldn't need any defensive traits due to their prodigious offensive capacities. Still, this presents a lot of opportunity for the wise opposing player to succeed. I know you don't like to hear it, but shooting is certainly a problem for Sword Masters. As is Magic, Impact Hits (D3 or not, they can do serious damage), or anything that makes them lose their ASF.


You say shooting, especially with Tomb Kings, is worthless.

You say hitting on a 5+ at all times is bad, but do consider the rest of the armies. Orcs and Goblins don't often have considerable shooting, for instance.

I know I took this out of context but, as before, run with me. The reason Elves don't do we against gunlines is the same reason as the rest of the races; not because it can wipe out units entirely, but because it significantly reduces the combat effectiveness of a unit.

Let's look at Spear Elves. Normally they dish out a lot of attacks. Let's say they're in a five-wide, four-deep formation, making a twenty model unit. That's 15 attacks (assuming a vanilla unit). A single unit of ten Thunderers and a War Machine of some type can quickly reduce this unit to well below 15 models, significantly reducing it's combat effectiveness, though not destroying it. Remember Spear Elves need that large volume of attacks in order to contend; by reducing their number of attacks, their combat effectiveness is therefore reduced. Remember this is only an example, and do try to see my point.


My stance: ASF is strong, not broken. Sword Masters, therefore, are strong, not broken. It just takes a different approach than most other armies.


A rebuttal, anyone?

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Until one has witnessed them in combat, one cannot comprehend the power that they possess."
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