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post #21 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-06-09, 06:59 AM
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What I really hate about ASF is that it will break some armies like those that are dependent on fast lightly armored cavalry or beasts, but then again if you know your going to face a High elf enemy the affect of ASF is lessened. For instance if you play Chaos warriors just don't take expendable weak tactical units like Marauders, and instead take warriors ext since most high elves units are pathetically weak in melee Versus heavy infantry.


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post #22 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-06-09, 08:32 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ascendant Valor View Post
I respect your point, NagashKhemmler. With some MathHammering, I can see why you're upset with the ability. But the fact is, army-wide ASF is there. We can create High Elf armies that drop the ASF as much as we want but the official publication states that High Elves have it.

So, at this point we can see that it's not an issue of wishing they didn't have it. Moreover, it's an issue of how to deal with it. Do you agree? Maybe we're still missing something?
I understand how to deal with it and I guess I have to accept that armies will have to be built with this ability in mind. As a result I will have to change my army composition to be more 40k styled in warhammer fantasy, but as you said, I sadly have to accept this reality in future warhammer games and plan around it. I'll leave my sword at the door and take my bow/gun.
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post #23 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-06-09, 08:33 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LukeValantine View Post
What I really hate about ASF is that it will break some armies like those that are dependent on fast lightly armored cavalry or beasts, but then again if you know your going to face a High elf enemy the affect of ASF is lessened. For instance if you play Chaos warriors just don't take expendable weak tactical units like Marauders, and instead take warriors ext since most high elves units are pathetically weak in melee Versus heavy infantry.
Like my tomb king cavalry? lol 4+ save, and quite expensive

Edited: Don't post individual points costs - squeek

Last edited by squeek; 05-06-09 at 11:00 AM.
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post #24 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-06-09, 08:53 AM
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You lost because of bad generalship, not because of ASF.

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post #25 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-06-09, 09:08 AM
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You lost because of bad generalship, not because of ASF.
Against High Elves, that's always going to be the case.

Always Strikes First makes the army playable. If you look at the points per model for any given High Elf, you'll notice that they're almost invariably around or above 15 apiece, and they're T3, S3, and at best wearing heavy armor with no shield. In other words, they're very, very, very squishy. The only way that a small army that's so squishy could possibly be playable is if they get their licks in first, to offset either the return attacks making a mess of them, and help offset the fact that they're going to get outmaneuvered by more numerous armies.

Always Strikes First is really all the army has going for it, as far as special abilities go. Every army has something-- Wood Elves move and shoot without penalty, Dark Elves hate everybody, Orks have Choppas and the Waaagh!, Chaos re-rolls failed panic tests and has Eye of the Gods... I mean, in the grand scheme of things, Always Strikes First is pretty even as an army-wide ability goes.

If you can somehow take away ASF from the High Elves, you're going to roll them like a cuban cigar-- off the top of my head, there's only the ability the Herald of Nurgle can buy, but I could easily have missed something. If you also have a character that always strikes first, you'll probably get the jump on the High Elves, to boot-- it's an increasingly common magic item trait, it seems, and most characters that can take weapons like that have at least comparable initiative to the High Elves' elite troops.

The other option is to plan to be defensive against the High Elves. Rather than try to exploit the fact that they're T3 and S3, try and make your guys tough enough by buying shields and armor if they don't come with it, and try to weather the attacks from the Elves so you can return it in spades. A unit of Dwarf Warriors, for example, can be given great weapons, but they also come with hand weapons and shields. Normally, giving them great weapons is a good call, but if you consider that a Dwarf Warrior has a 3+ armor save against S3 attacks in close combat, they can weather the 15 attacks that the High Elves' spearmen are going to throw at them. The return attacks will probably kill more elves than lost dwarfs, so it comes down to static resolution. When you factor in static resolution, the Elves are in bad shape, because there just aren't that many of them.

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post #26 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-06-09, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by NagashKhemmler View Post
I understand how to deal with it and I guess I have to accept that armies will have to be built with this ability in mind. As a result I will have to change my army composition to be more 40k styled in warhammer fantasy, but as you said, I sadly have to accept this reality in future warhammer games and plan around it. I'll leave my sword at the door and take my bow/gun.
You did have the bright idea of charging into the Front of Swordmasters when you already charged the Flank and Rear. You obviously don't know how to deal with it.

Changing your army doesn't have much to do with it. Styling your army to counter one leaves you weak to others, and you'll get more props for a single Tournament list.

Skaven aren't a combat army any way. The only reason you field Skaven Combat troops is to shield your guns.

As Son of Horus states, Army wide ASF is what makes such a fragile army playable. Yes, High Elves are defensive. But if your opponent is constantly sitting back with a gunline, you've got the tactical advantages of placing your own charges. He should use the ASF to fall back on, rather than as the basic for his plan.

Just a heads up, Horus, there are a few things that remove ASF - such as Chakax's shield, and the Amber Pendant for Wood Elves.



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post #27 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-06-09, 09:21 AM
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I'm painting up a high elf army as we speak. To be honest, I won't be relying on ASF with it at all! My dragon princes won't really be there for recieving a charge... they will likely lose if that happens. And my white lions will be my mage bunker. Everything else is chariots, range etc. I'm gonna be playing without any swordmasters or spearmen - the two units that make the best use of ASF. It's gonna be a good time.

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post #28 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-06-09, 10:12 AM
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I'm thinking that I would have to rely on luck if a unit of 20+ swordmasters came at my ogre line. Assuming they weren't stupid and moved to within 6" of my line I would have to throw as many units into teh fight as possible and try to get them failing one of the multiple fear tests... otherwise I'm likely to lose on static and dynamic res.

A flanking hunter might be good if he gets his harpoon launcher firing on a flank (S5 bolt thrower 36" range at BS4)
Leadbelchers might do ok, 3 would average 5 kills on the SM but should take about 2 wounds off themselves doing it (and Im not that lucky with them)
A gnoblar scraplauncher would be awesome but my army isnt really large enough to have it in yet and thats relying on some serious luck to hit (even assuming my guessing of range is spot on, which it usually is).

I agree with the pointless griping of ASF taking taktics outta the game. An Ogre army shouyld depend on using MSU to outmanouver the enemy and getting multiple charges which smash through the SCR which they lack... but with HE they get to muller my ogres before they do anything: so long as you have the edge in magic (which HE really should) and get rid of my buffs wounding ogres is about as easy as it gets. At T4 and 4+ save max im a big squishy orc with relatively fewer attacks and no SCR.

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post #29 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-06-09, 10:19 AM
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Ogres have Bull Charge. Use it. Ogres have Fear. Use it. Ogres have M6. Use it.



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post #30 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-06-09, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by NagashKhemmler View Post
After all my biggest point of contention is that the ASF rule completely invalidates certain units in certain armies more than anything has before, for example with my Tomb Kings the 'heavy' cavalry is useless, for a model which will be smashed, its biggest advantage neutralised (getting the charge first).
Why would you even take TK Heavy Cavalry against High Elves? TK Heavy Cavalry aren't all that really, in almost all cases chariots are more useful as a general consensus. In this case you are actively dropping chariots that beat T3 ASF to a pulp with impact hits and taking a less appropriate choice.

It's pretty obvious that you don't like ASF, it is also true that some players will abuse the nature of ASF and not bother with tactics. BUT you need to play against them and against ASF, not just pretend it doesn't exist as you will be disappointed when you choose unsuitable units and tactics to face off against them.

Yes, ASF does invalidate certain units to a point, however so do other armywide and unit specific rules. If someone takes no mages and you have 3 DS then you wasted lots of points, at least if you take a poor unit against HE it will do something, if only allow you to use it out of character and flatten war machines or archers. If you take Lore of Fire and your opponent has all Dragon Princes your magic is redundant. If you take a flying monster against a gunline army you are likely to get cannon sniped or spend the whole time hiding behind terrain. If you have a gunline and someone takes Gorgers or Wulfric you are in trouble.

This could go on ad nauseum, but the point is lots of armies have rules and units that require you to adapt your play to. It is like a large, more complex version of rock, paper, scissors. Doesn't matter how often you try to mob SMoH it wont work. So hit them with a rock!
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