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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-16-14, 09:48 AM Thread Starter
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Default Imrik, Crown Prince of Caledor

So with Endtimes: Khaine out, I've been reading up on Imrik. My current High Elves army is Caledor-based, so I was excited to see that in two of the three ET lists I can continue to run my preference. When I saw that Imrik got an overhaul, I was excited, and decided to look him over, and I realize something...

He's really not that exciting.

From what I can tell, you can build Imrik Jr. just using the army Book. A Prince + Star Dragon + Star Lance + Dragon Armor/Shield + Talisman of Endurance is 197 points less than Imrik. Now, with the new statlines that combine riders and monsters (no chance of Imrik getting shot off Minaithnir), matching everything up...

The Star Lance literally reads that it's the one from the army book. The Armor of the Dragon Tamer is just the Talisman, while his armor and the Fireborn rule is automatically Dragon Armor. It looks like that armor might be a 4+ instead of 5+, but the shield takes care of that. They didn't even give him the Armor of Caledor, which would have been superior!

So what does that 197 points get us? Lord of Dragons, Dragonhorn, and +1 WS... am I missing something? Honestly I feel like a build your own Prince would be FAR superior with the points you can stack in. Or maybe this is a sign of next edition Elves? Are they going to take a huge point bump for monsters with combined statline?

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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-16-14, 09:37 PM
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Well yes you do get extra weapon skill and his special rules but as well as that you gain the advantage of having a combined profile which means in comparison to a prince on dragon he is much less likely to be killed or have his dragon killed by cannons and other artillery, also on the charge instead of having 4 strength 7 attacks from the prince and 7 strength 7 attacks from the dragon you have 10 strength 10 attacks flat, he also gains murderous prowess so he is almost guarantee that whatever he hits will die.
Another benefit is that if he is charged he will have 10 strength 7 attacks ASF most of the time rerolling hits and wounds, whereas a prince would have only strength 4 attacks, so he is harder to kill than a prince with an extra WS and murderous prowess, not amazing but I'd say that's pretty good for what he costs.
CS out

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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-16-14, 10:17 PM
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Cannon protection. Point a cannon or two at the Prince, the Dragon dies, Prince follows. Imrik might make his Ward, and if he doesn't you need to hit with what, roughly three cannonballs to kill him on average (so you'd need to fire perhaps seven - one misfire on the first die, one misfire on the second, one that overshoots/undershoots, one saved by the Ward, three to kill him). Neither of them seem particularly good, but Imrik's totally the better choice as he will at least get to use his mean offensive profile. Also, Dragon with ASF and a silly initiative is awesome. ASF Breath Weapons make people cry.

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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-16-14, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stillios View Post
Well yes you do get extra weapon skill and his special rules but as well as that you gain the advantage of having a combined profile which means in comparison to a prince on dragon he is much less likely to be killed or have his dragon killed by cannons and other artillery, also on the charge instead of having 4 strength 7 attacks from the prince and 7 strength 7 attacks from the dragon you have 10 strength 10 attacks flat, he also gains murderous prowess so he is almost guarantee that whatever he hits will die.
Another benefit is that if he is charged he will have 10 strength 7 attacks ASF most of the time rerolling hits and wounds, whereas a prince would have only strength 4 attacks, so he is harder to kill than a prince with an extra WS and murderous prowess, not amazing but I'd say that's pretty good for what he costs.
CS out
The 9th edition rumours suggest that this change is going to be applicable to ridden monsters in general, as it has been a universal change with regards to the books since Book 1 of the End Times. Combined with the changes to how many points are available to Lords, and the Winds of Magic (while 4d6 is a lot of dice, you need to roll well on all 4 dice, rather than just roll well on 1 dice to significantly beat an opponents casting phase), it is becoming more and more likely to see people buying these lovely, but ultimately pretty poorly performing models in game at long last.

Like Strength-D weapons and the resilience of Super Heavies makes the inclusion of one require another to deal with it in 40K, you now actually have a reason to use them.

Looking at Imrik, I'm disappointed that his armour save isn't added to Minaithnir's Scaly Skin, as a 1+/5++ 10 T7 Wound model is extremely resilient - although it might have made him a little too broken. Halberd Chaos Warriors can only get 3 models in base contact if you charge him right - which if Khornate, that's 9 attacks, +3 supporting, +1 if one is a champion. Hitting on 4's, wounding on 6's, saving on a 5+/5++, that sees Imrik have a 7.5% chance of taking a wound.

If we were to use the 8th edition army book positing the changes;

Prince, Dragon Armour, Star Lance, Talisman of Endurance, Star Dragon = 610pts

That's 200pts (because Imrik doesn't have a shield).

If you are running Imrik, you are running a 1620, or more like 2K+ game, which gives you a maximum of 690pts to spend on monsters - which in the host of the Phoenix King is DE Master on Manticore, HE Noble on Griffon, Dragon Mage of Caledor, Caradryan on Ashtari, Naestra and Arahan on Ceithin-Har (all heroes), Flamespyre Phoenix, Frostheart Phoenix, and Treemen (all rare) as the only Monsters in addition to him.At the 225 for the Flamespyre or Treeman, and 240 for the Frostheart, that's any 2 of those. A Master+Manticore comes in at 220pts minimum, as does a HE Noble on Griffon - which means that you can afford to have 4 monsters in a 2K army with Imrik using this list.

In the Host of the Eternity King, not only does he get to reroll 1's to wound (but so does a Prince anyway), but in addition to the above, gets access to War Hydra (Special) and Kharibdyss (Rare), which means that you can run 3x War Hydra - 2 with Spit Fire or Fiery Breath (520pts) and a Kharybdiss (160) meaning you can get 5 monsters including Imrik to benefit from 1/turn stubborn.

The number of monsters likely to be faced is going to go up I think with these new rules - Karl Franz Ascended for example hits on a 5+ versus Imrik with these rules (same cost), and 10 ASF S10 attacks rerolling misses and failed wounds is going to see around 9ish hits, 8 wounds ignoring armour, and cause 4 wounds after Wards. In return, he has 10 attacks hitting on 5's and wounding on 5's, meaning that he causes 1 wound with a 33% chance to save before multiplication roll - assuming a failed save, is 3 wounds average.

The next turn, Imrik has 10 S7 attacks hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's ignoring his 3+ save - so yep, he's going to do 4ish wounds again, while Karl Franz deals the same in return. And with more wounds and a higher initiative, Karl Franz Ascended is dead meat.

Even against Nagash - Nagash hits on a 5+, and with *only* 6 attacks, that's 2 hits. While he wounds on a 3+, that's likely only 1 wound, and with *only* D3 wounds it's not a sure thing. However, the damage Imrik deals will drop off significantly - T7 means his normal attacks only wound on a 4+, so with a 4+ ward, that's 10 hitting on 3's, wound on 4, save on 4's - in other words around 1-2 wounds a turn. However - with the charge, and provided that Nagash player doesn't bother to waste getting Lore of Undeath counters by saving up spells, Imrik is likely to kill Nagash.

In my eyes, that -1 to Monsters "to hit" rolls is immense. It's not worth it, if your opponent doesn't run monsters, but that's down to your local meta, and pretty standard fare.

If my opponent didn't run Monsters, but I wanted a Lord on Dragon, I'd run Prince, Star Dragon, Ogre Blade, Talisman of Protection, the Other Trickster's Shard for S9 (i.e -6 to saves, so no armour saves ever, reroll successful wards), Shield, Lion Cloak (for 1+ save versus shooting, 2+ in combat if it works that way and a 4++).

Alternatively, I'd drop the Ogre Blade and take Sword of Might for S8 and drop the OTS for the Golden Crown of fuck you cannons.

Running a 2k army of the Eternal King;

Imrik; 810
13 Glade Guard, Musician; 166pts
12 Glade Guard, Musician; 154pts
5 Glade Riders; 95pts
5 Glade Riders; 95pts
War Hydra; Fiery Breath; 180pts
War Hydra; Fiery Breath; 180pts
Kharybdiss; 160pts
Kharybdiss; 160pts

Low model count, sure, but 5 1/game stubborn monsters, a hard counter to other monsters, and 35 BS4 shots a turn.



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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-16-14, 11:50 PM
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Not sure you're right on the Franz v Imrik combat, Vaz - pretty sure Spirit of Ghal Maraz means Franz auto-wounds with Multiple Wounds D3+1, which means he'll hit back on 5s, getting 3 hits, 3 wounds, one saved on Imrik's ward, then multiplied to 2+2D3 (average 6) which is going to really put a dent into Imrik. Might not kill him before Imrik can kill him first, but it'll be a pretty pyrrhic victory.

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Last edited by MidnightSun; 12-17-14 at 01:16 PM.
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-17-14, 12:11 AM
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Argh, forgot about the Autowound. That puts a big dent in that plan. Averages at 8 wounds caused to 12 taken over two turns, so unless you can wound him first (Scourgerunner or Skycutter chariots probably best here for maneuverable S7/5 no armour save shooting), which would mean 9 caused to 6 taken.

Alternatively, a Heavens caster - with Khaine rules, you get all of your spells known, so no RNG for knowing Iceshard Blizzard and Curse of the Midnight Wind (-1 to hit, reroll 6's = 3% accuracy). And with 4d6 dice, you should be able to 6 dice both spells and drop a Comet against the gunline.



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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-17-14, 12:17 AM
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You can only toss six dice at it if you roll a six when rolling to see how many dice you can use on each spell so it's not always a reliable way to deal with him but it's better than just letting him roflstomp his way through your characters best way to do Karl in is to send the eternity king after him, shadow magic + asuryath = dead Karl frank and a griffon feather bed for malekith

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chill out?...CHILL OUT!!!!!!!, THIS IS WARHAMMER, THERE IS NO TIME FOR "CHILLING OUT", WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS IS?, SOME KIND OF GAME?, THIS ARE SERIOUS BUSINESS!!!!
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-17-14, 12:22 AM
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Urgh, skim readings my downfall today. Forgot about the d6 limit. I'm actually liking this change to the magic rules. Will play a few games over christmas.



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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-17-14, 12:25 AM
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Played a few games of it so far and the only thing I don't like is that there is no defence against end times spells since you can't attempt to Dispell them and some are a 15 to cast so allarielle can cast retro with vortex on two dice and not even miscast and there is no way to stop her >

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chill out?...CHILL OUT!!!!!!!, THIS IS WARHAMMER, THERE IS NO TIME FOR "CHILLING OUT", WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS IS?, SOME KIND OF GAME?, THIS ARE SERIOUS BUSINESS!!!!
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-15-15, 06:47 PM
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I absolutely hate it. Okay, maybe I'm biased because my opponent killed my Daemon Prince General/Wizard on turn 1 by casting Searing Doom until I had no more dice, but it's apparent that any army with access to low-casting spells can abuse the hell out of them (Acquiesence being a personal favourite, with Lore of Slaanesh being a star in general - that 1000pts of Malekith goes down pretty quickly when you throw 5 Cacophonic Choirs at him).

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