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post #31 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-10-14, 11:52 AM
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They can make them. They just suck ass.

The best use of Ballistic Skill shooting is taking Khalida which gives a single unit BS3 shooting with unmodified to hit rolls (so, always hits on a 4+), and gains Poisoned attacks. A big, big horde of these is around 60 strong, with a supporting Level 4 Heirophant making use of Smiting to make them Multiple Shots 2. The tax of the Heirophant and its limitation on its lore made it difficult to get access to debuffs/weapon buffs (not only because Death and Light kind of suck for that as well).

With Undead legions, you can take;

Lore of Fire; Flaming Sword of Rhuin (+1 to wound, arrows are magical and flaming), Fulminating Flame Cage (penalises enemy movement) - Vampire Counts with Forbidden Lore of Metal; Plague of Rust (-1 to enemy Armour Saves), Enchanted Blades of Aiban (don't benefit from the bonus to hit, but become Armour Piercing and Magical), Transmutation of Lead (-1 to enemy Armour Saves) - Vampire Counts with Forbidden Lore
Lore of Light; Net of Amyntok (Slows enemy movement) - Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts with Forbidden Lore
Lore of Heavens; Harmonic Convergence (rerolls 1's to hit and to wound), Wind Blast (slows enemy movement), Curse of the Midnight Wind (enemy rerolls 6's to save) - Vampire Counts with Forbidden Lore
Lore of Shadow; Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma (-d3 Movement, slows enemies), The Withering (-d3 toughness),
Lore of Death; Soulblight (-1 Toughness) - Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts with Forbidden Lore

As you can see, there are many options which enhance an Archer Horde - I personally think Heavens is the best best, especially as with Bretonnia around the corner, their Skylance Pegasus Knights will become big business once again, and slowing them down and causing damage to them will be big boost, but Lore of Fire is ALWAYS useful (Flame Cage should have been their 6th spell, but been more dangerous), especially with the Wood Elf bandwagon and with Regeneration coming out in big numbers with Undead letting Tomb Kings, Necrotects, Crypt Horrors and Sphinxes play together with Mortis engines, and can help you strip Regen.

Ballistic Skill shooting does suck, but sink some resources into it, and you're fairly golden. It usually revolved around the Watchtower scenario, however, when they could take the watchtower and hold it indefinitely.

Cavalry, erm, you can field a lot of cheap horsemen. And by cheap, I mean crap. WS2, S4, 1 Attack, Initiative 2, large base size etc means that they're typically going to be outside of range for March movement - if Fantasy ever gets more Objective based games, then they'd suffer even more. For "Heavy" Cavalry with a 4+ Save, they blow ass, especially when you've got access to Chariots who can at least do damage with their Impact hits, and have My Will Be Done for WS6, or Black Knights who have the Banner of the Barrows, Killing Blow, S6 Lance Charges and a 2+ Save, there's no need whatsoever for Heavy Cavalry in a list unless you like the look of the 20 year old skeleton horses and massive headed skeletons.



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post #32 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-10-14, 08:17 PM Thread Starter
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Alright that's great thank. One final question, what do you think of Nagash and the new special characters.

6th Edition. 7th Edition

Eldar. Eldar
W14-D1-L4. W2-D0-L0

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W3-D2-L1

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post #33 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-10-14, 09:37 PM
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Nagash is brilliant. Level 5 caster is fantastic, the ability to 10 dice is brilliant, and being able to bring in triple the value of troops with an extra 30 pts generated per counter means he can quickly make up the points deficit. Don't be fooled by his combat stats. They are to prevent him from being cannon sniped/HKB assassinated.

Other characters - only Mannfred is worth his points, and he can combat and cast well enough. Arkhans sucks. Neferata blows, and she uses teeth too. Krell, eh. You can summon him with a few counters thanks to Nagash. Vlad, his special thing relies on him dying. Not sure that's a thing that anyone wants to build on. He is fairly tough, but you can build tougher Vampire Lords if that's your thing.



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post #34 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-11-14, 09:46 AM Thread Starter
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So would you recommend nagash for a newcomer and is he worth is massive points.

6th Edition. 7th Edition

Eldar. Eldar
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Imperial guard
W3-D2-L1

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post #35 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-12-14, 12:18 PM
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You'd have to build him right, I think. He can be taken in a 2K list, unless I'm missing something, which means you have a 500pt army backing him up (500pts for the core - and as pointed out, the core sucks, so can't really be counted for much IMHO).

This means you need to encourage as much magic as possible - hence, Casket of Souls and heirotitan are pretty much autoincludes.

You're going to want to be able to bring on all of your models available, which means that you're going to want to take every Undeath lore spell to guarantee you don't miss out on an important one - so take all 7, leaving you with 2 other spells to randomly roll - I'd take both for Lore of Vampires so you can heal yourself should you get injured, and for Invocation should that prove necessary, or Death so you should be able to get additional power dice (but honestly, doing damage is the last thing you're going to want to achieve).

Don't take any other characters, you can easily raise them (remember, he triples raised points, and adds 30pts for each counter spent, rather than 10 - So Ryse 9+ = 150pts Infantry, Ryse 14+ = 300pts Infantry, Ryse 16+ = 450pts Monstrous Infantry, Razkhar 10+ 225 War Beasts/Swarms, Razkhar 16+ = 450pts Monstrous Beasts, Kandorak 10+ = Character = 195pts, Kandorak 24+ = 600pts Monster, Chariot or War Machine, Akar'aran 16+ = 450pts of Cavalry, Monstrous Cavalry or Chariots). Although a BSB is fairly important, they're expensive - the cheapest one is 110pts for a Wight King - using Kandorak on a 10+ gets you a BSB you can place.

So, it's looking something like;

Nagash = 1K

Core = 500pts

Rare = Casket, Heirotitan = 310

This leaves you with a further 190pts to spend - This prevents you from taking Black Coaches, Terrogheists, Necrosphinxes, Mortis Engines, Blood Knights (200pts Minimum unit cost).

190pts for me would look like double Screaming Skull Catapult (180), and then max out archers for ranged damage, and then raise in tanky blocks of units - maybe a single unit of Zombies with which you can throw one dice Invocation of Nehek/Morkarn to add to at the end of each phase if you have it spare and your staff has 4 dice stored in it.

It would suffer to a faster cavalry based army until you can summon enough units to put down something to take it down (a Mournfang heavy Ogre army, or a Skullcrusher Heavy Chaos Knight), as they can easily force an Instability check on something as crap as Skeleton Archers with around give or take 15 wounds, causing entire units to blink out as a result of their horrific damage output.

Nagash doesn't come into his until 3K, IMHO, when he has a balanced 2K army list (remember that you're going to effectively have larger than a 2K list, as you're not going to want to "waste" points on your previously mandatory level 4, who can no longer cast spells thanks to Nagash solely making use of the winds of magic, so it's probably nearer the base army of a 2,4-2,5K list). These armies at least have access to thinks like Necrosphinx for Ogres, or Black Knights+Banner of the Barrows to make a mockery of heavy cavalry,

I think he's pretty powerful, but I think the problem will become using him as a crutch. For a beginner, I'd recommend just learning the game originally. It would be like suggesting to a new 40K player how to use a Primarch, who brings all these massive force multipliers to an army (literally, in this case). Sure, it makes them individually more powerful, but it makes the army massively smaller (in an army that relies on its size over individual valour for the most part), and removing such a crutch completely changes the status of the army.

I.e get him, paint him, it's a beautiful model, and even play a few games with him - but while you're learning I'd keep to a more "normal" army.



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post #36 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-12-14, 08:13 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks a million Vaz and everyone else for the comments. One of the reasons I love Heresy

6th Edition. 7th Edition

Eldar. Eldar
W14-D1-L4. W2-D0-L0

Imperial guard
W3-D2-L1

Space marine's
W0-D0-L0
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