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post #1 of 3 (permalink) Old 09-06-14, 01:28 AM Thread Starter
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Default New Ridden Monsters discussion; combined statlines

So, today, I got my first glimpse of the new Warhammer Fantasy "campaign" rulebook concerning the End Times and all things Nagash, which, seemingly like the end-of-edition Grey Knights and Necrons, contains some sneak previews of what to expect for the next edition.

There were three for me, actually.

The first was the already well discussed one - the Lord allowance increasing. This is something which I like - the big attractive models like the Princes on Dragons have always been one of the most attractive things of the game, similar to how the big ol' tanks tend to draw a few "ooh's" and "aah's" from the 40k crowd. It has been notable over the last few editions actually how big the monsters have grown - compare a treeman from this edition to the one from 5th edition wood elves. That thing used to be on a 40mm base for crying out loud. I'm happy at this, although it will be interesting to see how they manage to imbalance magic further now that some can field a L4 wizard at 500pts games.

The next one was rules for buildings. Or rather, building collections. Similar to how you could always buy terrain in 40K, but other than it looking pretty, they didn't really do much, until they started to weaponise them and turn them into assets for the game. GW have finally cottoned on to the idea that people buy what works, and if it's good in a game then it's going to sell well. Seeing that Gardens of Morr have progressed from simply being a collection of Mystical Terrain into a defined object which grants special rules from being clustered together. It will be a matter of time before we start seeing "fortifications" of some sort as an actual purchaseable thing in army books. I for one am quite happy to see this. I only hope they come with some proper form of siege rules.

The last thing which a few others have touched upon is that Monstrous Creatures with Riders seem to share the profiles - presumably choosing the best of some stats, and adding a select few others together.

Now, the book I've got isn't the full one. I'm waiting for a while to see whether it picks up the game a lot, as right now the 8th edition game is a gopping mess (not as much of one as 7th, but still), so I've not got access to everything that's in the Nagash book, but as far as I can tell, there's no rules for combining monsters - this is pure theorycraft.

So, lets take a look at Mannfred - he has two incarnations, the Vampire Counts version where he is called Count Mannfred, and Nagash version, where he is called "the Mortarch of Night" - we'll call him Mortarch Mannfred for ease.

So, Count Mannfred - he is 530pts, and if you've got the book, you'll be aware of his statline and special rules. He has options for 3 different mounts - a Barded Nightmare, a Hellsteed, or an Abyssal Terror. Other than the changes to the global rules for Generals of Undeath (i.e, removed), he is the same.

Now, come to Mortarch Mannfred - at 650pts, he costs the exact same as an Abyssal Terror, but rides a Dread Abyssal Instead.

Firstly, his unit type changes, becoming "Monster (Special Character)".

His Movement stays the same (M6 for both Vampire, and Abyssal Terror - presumably takes the Movement speed of the Mount), His WS stays the same (Mannfred's WS is higher than the Abyssal Terror), as does his Ballistic Skill (for all the good that is), as does his Strength (5, which matches both the rider and the mount - it's not clear here which is used). The first change is Toughness - becoming Toughness 6 (Mannfred is T5, as is the Abyssal Terror - here I assume the Dread Abyssal is T6), as does his Wounds value (10, versus the 3 (5) of Mannfred - the Abyssal Terror has 4 wounds, so I can only assume the Dread Abyssal hsa 5 wounds and the two value are added together). In regards to Initiative, it stays the same as Mannfred (7), while its attacks value is changed to 9 (Mannfred has 5 normally - so I can only guess that a Dread Abyssal has 4 attacks, and the two are added) - his Leadership is the same as when he was a Count.

In regards to the special rules, Mannfred keeps his own Special Rules () and adds to it any different ones from his mount - which going by the Abyssal Terror are Fly, Large Target, Terror, and Undead - it is worth noting he loses his Loremaster special rule - otherwise he would be extremely broken as he'd then have up to 16 possible spells to cast. But he keeps Dark Cunning, and Master of the Black Arts. He has also lost The Hunger, but I think that might be more to do with him having another special rule to replace that (Feaster of Souls/Mortarch of Night - I've not yet read what they do - anyone help a brother out?)

Now, looking Tomb King Arkhan, and comparing that to Mortarch Arkhan - Mortarch Arkhan has increased Movement (6, versus 4), Improved Toughness (6, versus 5), Improved Wounds (8 versus 3), and improved attacks (7 versus 3). They kept the same Initiative again, but even Arkhan's lowly Initiative of 3 is higher than the Abyssal Terror's 2.

So, from what I gather, when making a Ridden Monstrous Creature, you do the following;

Movement - Ridden Monsters
Weapon Skill - The Higher of the two
Ballistic Skill - Presumably, the Higher of the two
Strength - Presumably, the Higher of the two
Toughness - Presumably, the Higher of the two
Wounds - Add the two together
Initiative - Presumably the Higher of the two
Attacks - Add the two together
Leadership - Presumably the Higher of the two

Unit Type; Change to Monster

Special Rules; Add the two together

In regards to Magic Items, it seems like you cannot get the benefits of the Magic Weapon more times than you would have normally - Arkhan for example, can only ever regain 4 wounds (despite having 3 attacks base - might be benefits from the new rules), while Mannfred can only ever regain 5 dice (with 5 base attacks). It's not clear however how that works with other types of magic weapons which provide flat bonuses, such as the Ogre Blade (maybe only ever apply +X strength to a number of attacks equal to the number of attacks you'd normally make with your base character.

Armour - you get a +1 to your Armour Save for counting as being mounted, or 6+ if you didn't have one already.

So, that said, what can you make?



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post #2 of 3 (permalink) Old 09-06-14, 10:14 AM
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Chaos Lord on Chaos Dragon with Mark of Tzeentch, Talisman of Preservation, Sword of Swift Slaying, Third Eye of Tzeentch, Soul Feeder - 630pts

Going by your formula:
WS8
BS5
S6
T6
W9
I7
A10
Ld9

1+ armour, 3+ Ward rerolling 1s, Always Strikes First, and for every wound he deals in close combat, roll a D6 - every 6 gets him a wound back.

If this truly is what's happening, and it looks like it is from what you've posted, I might just have to buy me a Dragon.

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post #3 of 3 (permalink) Old 09-06-14, 12:21 PM Thread Starter
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That dragon is nasty - you also get the breath attack as well if need be. (My favourite use of Galrauch was having him in a challenge then using the Breath of Change to force 2d6 toughness tests - what a shame that he's not going to be as good now - I hope that he gets a suitable buff.

Eltharion (please, no spoilers about him in Nagash, I'm part way through and I've heard he's involved somewhat) on Stormwing

M6, WS8, BS7, S5, T5, W8, I8, A8, LD10

ASF with S7 attacks from his sword ignoring saves, and a L2 Wizard so can pick up something like Fire, or Light to buff.

Caradryan on Ashtari

M2, WS6, BS6, S6, T6, W7, I7, A8, Ld9

4+ Ward Save and ASF, Terror, Fly, Large Target, Blizzard Aura (all targets are ASL and suffer -1 Strength - immune to S3 attackers), Natural Armour of 5+, +1 for being mounted, and heavy armour for another 5+, stacking for a 2+, and a random roll which grants me +1 Initiative, Attack or Strength potentially,

Mark of Asuryan if ever I am killed, and S7 attacks with the Phoenix Blade doing Flaming Attacks and Multiple Wounds (D3).

Shield of the Merwyrm becomes kind of hilarious as well - you're no longer "mounted" you're a monster - so 15pts for a 4++ Parry.

An Old Vampire Build I had;

Vampire Lord, 3 Additional Magic Levels, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Red Fury, Quickblood, Beguile, Tricksters Helm, Talisman of Preservation, Zombie Dragon

M6, WS7, BS5, S6, T6, W10, I7, A10, Ld10

Special Rules; The Hunger, Undead, Vampiric, Fly, Large Target, Pestilential Breath, Scaly Skin (5+), Swarm of Flies, Terror

-1 to be hit in close combat by those in base contact, Red Fury generates one additional attack per wound caused in close combat, Scaly Skin 5+, Heavy Armour 5+, and Mounted = 2+, Talisman of Preservation for 4++, Tricksters Helm for +1 AS and forces enemies to reroll successful to wound rolls for 1+/4++. Beguile forces an enemy model in base contact to take a Ld Test with -3 Modifier or must reroll successful to hit rolls. I have S8 attacks with the Great Weapon, all but ignoring armour saves and striking at Initiative, with a small chance to regain a wound previously lost in battle during combat.

In addition to that, I'm a level 4 wizard (using the Lore of the Vampires), with the ability to heal up to 4 wounds a phase from "The Curse of Undeath" Lore Attribute.

Of those spells, I can pick up Vanhels Danse Macabre for Rerolling failed to hit, Hellish vigour for rerolling failed to wound, Curse of Years to do damage over time an enemy blob, Raise Dead for creating zombie shields (and Invocation of Nehek to keep them alive)... 776pts though.

If you want your opponent to hate you, take Nagash, with the Lore of Undeath and take all 6 spells from the lore to ensure that you get Kandorak the Harbinger, which allows a single monster, or character worth up to 200pts with a 24+ Casting cost. Have fun casting away - making sure you store 4 dice into the staff. As Nagash not only allows you to summon triple the points worth, but Raise the Dead counters grants +30pts for Nagash. At 600 points, you need another 180, or six spells cast. Your opponent is going to hate you when he's spent ages whittling down the forces gained by Nagash, and Nagash himself to suddenly encounter that Vampire Lord.

It becomes slightly more difficult if by Monster they do not include Characters riding monsters, but I suppose it kind of makes sense - but in that case, you need to ensure that you need to cast 20 lore of undeath spells successfully - with 5 spells a turn, that means that you're not going to bring him on before 5th turn, unless you have ways and means of ensuring that the spells go off without being dispelled, and are always successfully cast.

It'll work better in a Storm of Magic game where you have 4d6 for the winds of magic.



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