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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-25-13, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by 12ebootX797 View Post

"someone has to come last. "
-Azezel


I might be misinterpreting here But why? I have always believed that GW games would be more enjoyable and Hobbyist friendly if each race was pretty equally updated. If it was equal in book and models it would make each race a fun and viable choice. (note army's can still be fun and viable choices)
What I said was that, on a scale of power, someone has to come last. It's impossible for fifteen very different army books to all have the same level of power and effectiveness. Someone has to come last just as someone has to come first.

Actually, I don't think Brets are last, it's near the bottom though. Thing is, when I compare the Fantasy armies to 40k... Wow, they look nigh-perfectly balanced. The gulf between top and bottom tiers is actually pretty small.

Fantasy is far better balanced than 40k. Fantasy doesn't have Marines hogging the spotlight. We should be celebrating these things, not complaining about the small niggles.


Which brings me on to update schedules.

Here's an uncomfortable fact: Games Workshop isn't Father Christmas. They aren't actually there to bring toys to all the good boys and girls.

They have bills to pay, Shareholders to placate and accountants to make them do both.

Updating an army costs about the same, no matter which army. Some armies are guaranteed to sell well. Marines, WoC, High Elves. Some armies are slightly iffier. Brets, Dark Eldar, the poor, poor, sad-girls-crying-in-the-corner Sisters of Battle.

Since updating any army costs the same, but some armies will make far more money for that outlay, GW have to concentrate on them. Those armies subsidise the others. Daemons of Chaos got updated this year, but it's the High Elves, Dark Elves and Lizardmen still to come that will pay for that update.

Look for a pattern of about 2 or 2.5 popular armies for every niche one.

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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-25-13, 11:40 PM Thread Starter
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I understand GW has to make money.I just wish that they would update the Brets and send out these hopefully better selling products to reopen up the market for this army.

I am grateful that this hobby exists and that i can play this game at all. I just wanted to voice my opinion on a specific topic that i am passionate about. Hopefully finding people who can help me cope with my want for new Bretonians.
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-26-13, 02:22 AM
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It comes down to the real situation, as you know the Bretonians are in some sense the French in Warhammer, well GW is British, put two and two together and you get Francophobia.

Anyway, just bought the Bretonia army book, and i kinda like it, ok it is old but as a collector, it makes no diff to me, and i am formulating a Bretonian Army. Hopefully next year i will begin a small Bretonian Army, gotta luv the French.

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Last edited by Achaylus72; 04-26-13 at 02:24 AM.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-26-13, 12:56 PM
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I just wanted to voice my opinion on a specific topic that i am passionate about. Hopefully finding people who can help me cope with my want for new Bretonians.
And we all understand that. We all also know it feels good to vent from time to time and that's half the reason fora like this exist.

For what it's worth, my way of coping is to see that, actually, the current Bret book isn't really that bad, and the models are actually pretty good.

Drop in by the Round Table of Bretonnia some time and meet a few people who agree.


Ps. Oh, and please, spell 'Bretonnia' with two 'n's... It really bugs me!

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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-26-13, 01:10 PM
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For people who are wondering exactly where Bretonnians come in strong;

The meta has evolved away from 3 large blocks of infantry in competitive gaming. While MSU is hardly back in style, units (with rare exceptions, notably Skaven, thanks to fucking retarded rules writing) are rarely larger than 30 models.

War Machines are too powerful, and other than for keeping Steadfast, there's very little more models actually does for a unit, and some units just get too expensive, too quickly for it.

Monstrous Infantry and Cavalry also have the potential to be game-breakers. Ogres with their Impact Hits even more so; their charges typically having 5 or more attacks attached to them per person. Alongside their super accurate cannon, it is why they are the strongest army out there.

Breton's counter that. Their War Machine is cheap as chips, and although it cannot insta-gib more than one, a pair of them can rack up kills fairly easily. The Ogre Cannon is neutralised by Pegasus knights/Lords with Sirienne's Locket. The access to HKB is fantastic, can easily take down a couple of Ogres in a unit. Combine with the Blessing, Vow and immunity to Ogre's Stomp and likely ability to out-range Ogre Charges meaning no Impact Hits, Ogres damage output is nearly halved. S4 Basic Troops against Ogres Low WS means that they're still hitting and wounding on a 4+. Archers are cheap as cheaps and can rapidly mount up kills in addition to focus fire from Trebuchet's.

A couple of sacrificial Mounted Yeomen can offset the Ogres 3 Sabretusks as well.



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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-26-13, 02:11 PM
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Most of your points are about Ogres.

Now, Ogres have a strong claim to being tip of the top right now, but 'good against Ogres' doesn't equal 'strong book'.

I'm also not sure where you're getting 'units are rarely larger than 30 models.' I read most army specific fora from time to time and watch battle reports on Youtube and as a rule, units are rarely smaller than 30 models, with the exception of specific elites like Chaos Warriors or High Elf Swordmasters.

You'll rarely see - to pick a non-random example, an empire player put down less than 30 Greatswords or 50 State Troops in a block.

Monstrous Cavalry are the sovereign remedy to big blocks of 20mm bases, but so far, only three armies have them, and Brets aren't one.

Our ability to take down, for example, 50 State Troopers is either Dwellers Below or Treb Fire.

No question, Life magic and Trebuchets are good , but they alone cannot drag is up to the upper end of the spectrum. Nor, as awesome as he is, can the HKB lord.

Bretonnians have a book that works. I like it and I like using it and building lists with it. I don't think they're the weakest book around, but they are certainly in the lower half of the list.

Even if they are quite good against Ogres.

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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-26-13, 09:40 PM Thread Starter
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Apologies for the misspelling of Bretonnia.
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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-26-13, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ebootX797 View Post
Apologies for the misspelling of Bretonnia.
fixed

My friends ran a 2*1k twin bret army for a doubls tourny and made it pretty nasty. They had 2 lords with 1+ saves (one rerollable, the other with a ward), a lv4 life and lv1 beasts mage, 2 big knight trains and 1 smaller ethereal movement knight unit backed up by 3 trebs. They had included so many items and vows that each unit was incredibly complicated to remember what saves they had andwhat you needed to wound (no 2s to wound if your S5+, 4+ ward against non-magical etc etc). Considering they were both pretty much forced to take a lord, BSB and mage they managed to build some nice armies, only real problem they had was Watchtower where they hoped to march the ethereal move unit through the tower to block access then start killing the opponent in the open as fast as possible....


I don't think they're a bad army and they have some excellent units but its the random units that are either massively undercosted for the current rules (such as S5 trebs) or are all but useless... its the bane of the older books that you have lots of choice and most of its rubbish.

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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-29-13, 02:07 PM
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Ah, I remember hoping for an update even 5 years ago. It always seemed just...around...the....corner. No dice, but up until 8th, my Brets rocked out with the best of them (I was even quite evangelical about them on the forums here ). After 8th though, man, I really wish they'd redone the book, we needed it, if only to give us more viable options than treb/character spam.

As it is, I'm now getting my knights in armor kicks from playing the Protectorate of Menoth in Warmachine - seems I'm a sucker for a Devotion based army Hope the Lady forgives me, if we get a new book and I decide to dust off my Brets some day

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