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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-04-12, 02:48 PM
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Wood Elves?

Limited lores, Expensive Wizards, bad unique Lore that their Hero level casters MUST take, very little in the way of dick-with-the-magic-phase abilities.

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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-04-12, 03:20 PM
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What about Bretonnians?
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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-04-12, 03:35 PM
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I wouldn't call a 155pt Mage with 2 wounds, a 5+ Armour, no ward save and only access to High Magic to be a decent BSB. You might as well just hand them free VP's/Win Conditions.

Worst mages? OnG; as good as the little waagh is, the army is just atrocious. None Tzeentch Warriors of Chaos; Daemon Magic Lores, and Tomb Kings; again like OnG, the TK army sucks donkey balls, so despite Death and Light, they aren't brilliant, their own lore is atrocious.

Ogres lore is fairly bad; but they don't need their lore. It is only because Slaughtermasters are decent fighters, can take magic armour, and can heal themselves that they take it. Course +1 strength/stubborn is always good fun, but it is not the lore that makes it good.

Wood Elves lore blows balls; although they have the only remaining magical charge move remaining in the game, they have nothing worthwhile to cast it on. Even Treekin don't benefit from it.



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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-04-12, 04:21 PM
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There are only two armies which can do this without gimping yourself.

Non undead armies need a BSB. Trying to play 8ed without a BSB is taking a deliberate handicap.

Lizardmen and high elves have this covered.

Slann can act as both general and BSB for Lizardmen.

High elves need a Noble as BSB, but for 45 points you can give him the Radient Gem of Hoeth to make him a Wizard. He's a pretty damned good fighter/mage too with heavy armour, and an ASF Great Weapon.

(You can also give the Gem to a Prince which is pretty damned brutal).

High elves can also have Dragon Mages (Hero level Fire Mage riding a dragon) and mount Archmages on Dragons. Not really a good idea, but they can do it.

You could even have a dragon-riding prince with the gem to make him a wizard and a hero-level Dragonmage.
That last combo sounds really painful :D


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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-04-12, 06:43 PM
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What about Bretonnians?

Not at all bad at the ol' Magic game.

Typical Bret wizard is cheap and will have a 6+ for being Mounted and a 6++/5++ Blessing save and Magic Resistance 1/2, She can ride in the second rank and still cast with line of sight and has access to the Lore of Life. They can also have two dispel items and the Fey enchantress has the only spell(s) in the game whcih cast for absolutely no power dice.



They cannot play Magic with the big boys, but they are not bad at it.

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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-04-12, 07:12 PM
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Worst mages? OnG; as good as the little waagh is, the army is just atrocious. None Tzeentch Warriors of Chaos; Daemon Magic Lores, and Tomb Kings; again like OnG, the TK army sucks donkey balls, so despite Death and Light, they aren't brilliant, their own lore is atrocious.

Ogres lore is fairly bad; but they don't need their lore. It is only because Slaughtermasters are decent fighters, can take magic armour, and can heal themselves that they take it. Course +1 strength/stubborn is always good fun, but it is not the lore that makes it good.
OnG can be a powerful army... if played right. But very few are willing to put in the money to add those units that turn a very bog-standard army into a killer.

I've not really played slaaneshi magic much but I know its a bad lore... not for the spels, just because its so hard to take. At 2k you really can't fit a decent wizard. Tzeentch is solid just not a scratch on the choice of BRB lores and Nurgle is a much maligned army... but actually pretty decent. If you can take a Lv4 GUO and keep him alive (no cannons/pit of shades) then you should have fun in the magic phase... but the chances of keeping him alive are fairly shite.

As for ogres... great maw is one of the best lores in the game in my view. Being able to bubble +1T and/or regen can turn an ogre unit from hard to devastating... and since with an expensive army its relatively easy to get army wide its a massively impressive lore. I will also always look down on anyone who gives slaughtermasters magic armour: its an acknowledged mistake... that GW lack the balls to correct it doesn't mean it should be used.

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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-05-12, 03:12 PM
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WoC Slaanesh is good. DoC slaanesh is impossible to get. Wand of wych elm single-handedly makes wood elves better. No better at casting - but great at dispelling. athel loren sucks.

I'd say OnG worst at casting becauseof restricted lores. TK aren't great either, but if they really invest into it it can be pretty good. Great maw is ok crappy but toothcracker and guts are turn it amazing.

Lore of the wild is the worst though. So maybe we could include beastmen - but thank god they got beasts.

My tactics articles, if you need help making a new army, or beating one:

High Elves - https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...d.php?t=112437

Tyranids - https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...d.php?t=118886

New Warriors of Chaos - https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...=1#post1336092


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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-05-12, 03:47 PM
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How can TK be good? They have to take Nehekhara, and that lore sucks, and if you take a second Lore, you're stuck with WS2 (3?) Chariots.

The Giant is a massive "shoot me". The Casket is good, but random, the Kanopi only affect's RiP spells and there are few enough of those around. Sure, you can go Death or Light - but by that stage; you've spent what, 450-600pts to get the same output that a 200-300pt Caster is able to from other armies, and you're actually no better off than they are.

Arguably; Beast's isn't that Brilliant; it has one good spell; Curse of Anraheir (just try telling me that Open Ground is not a Terrain Type), Wyssan's wildform only makes killy units more killy (and Minotaurs/Bestigors are among the nastiest in the game already and don't need augmenting), while lower level units still suck and get beaten up fairly easily thanks to not improving the Initiative or Save. And as good as a Savage Beast looks on a Doombull; yeah, it's already about as Deadly as it can go and enhancing it is overkill.



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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-05-12, 04:21 PM
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Wssyans's wildform is amazing on a horde of gors. Minotaurs or the like less - you are right, they don't need the buff, but going from 3/4 to 4/5 make you amazing. If you have banner of the beasts...

Nekehara isn't terrible. The buff spells are decent, and the lore attribute is nice to get guys back with. Yes, hierotitans scream shoot me, but half the freakin' army does, and sphinxes are still regarded as pretty good.
Kb - is decent. Buffing up kb is pretty awesome. Dessication can nueter a unit. Extra movement is amazing. Amazing - and literally makes the army better jus from its presence. The buffs/hexes in nekehara are what are good - not the BABOOM - I mean fizzle spells that try to do damage. And light of death. Plus, you must take a hierophant, so might as well make him good.

PS - put a prince in chariots.

My tactics articles, if you need help making a new army, or beating one:

High Elves - https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...d.php?t=112437

Tyranids - https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...d.php?t=118886

New Warriors of Chaos - https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...=1#post1336092


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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-05-12, 06:19 PM
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I don't have my army book to hand; But the Undead need the extra movement; unlike the Vampires who have easy access to Fast Movement (Vargheists/Varghuls, Black Coach, Black Knights, Vampire Knights, Terrorgheists), whereas TK have... Two forms of Cavalry whose core rules render them useless (4+ heavy cav, and missile cav who cannot march and shoot and are limited to 5+ to hit), tomb scorps who are stuck under the sand until later turns, carrion who are war machine hunters and one of the 3 good units, Necrosphinx (huge toughness rendered useless by the wound chart), and chariots (cannot march and require the use of a king to be useful after the charge without being hammered by being hit on a 3+). That movement is required to make them actually be anywhere near the quality of other armies.

KB on units which can barely hit, barely move, attack last in CC, and quite frankly be generally ignored is not much use at all.

The buff and debuffs cannot keep up with other lores from the BRB. You MUST take a heirophant, It MUST take Nehekhara; and it is no good. You're spending 140 pts on a caster with t4, 3 wounds, and no armour save, who cannot heal himself, cannot pass over the Heirophant-ism to another so you are stuck with crumble, cannot defend himself in combat, cannot flee, and the rest of the army is reliant on healing no more than 8-16 Skeletons a turn?

Compare that to a Vampire Lord with L4, 5 WS7 I7 S7 Attacks, a 2+/4++ Save and forcing successful wounds to be rerolled, healing a wound off himself each time he casts a spell, rerolls to hit/wound (with a unit of wights having 2+ to hit and killing blow s6 charge), and can restore 5 dead knights to his retinue, or one who can quite simply lash out 16 ASF s5 attacks with reroll to wound, etc.

Or a Master Necro raising up to 10 Skeletons or 16 Zombies, and then plonking a unit of zombies at just the right angle to redirect/speedbump.

There is a reason that Vampires are considered tier 2 or even top tier in the right hands and set up, and that Tomb Kings are sitting rock bottom next to Wood Elves; wood elves have the benefit of a 7(?) year old army book and combat style not well supported by the core rules; while TK have a comparatively brand new book, which on paper is well supported by the core rules; Monstrous Infantry, Flying HKB Monster, Chariot units, Buffing characters, Flying healable cheap chaff which are fairly decent in combat, war machines, cheap blocks of unbreakable core infantry... What went wrong? Shit magic lores which they are forced to take; even wood elves have Treekin and
Eternal Guard backed up by Lore of Life. How is it that wood elves are able to have more "undead" than Tomb Kings?

Other armies which do well without good magic are Bretonnians, Empire and Dwarves; Bretons and Cavalry Empire's strength comes from countering the ability of the Ogres (and to a lesser extent, Monstrous Infantry all over) to succeed, while Dwarves and Artillery Empire just obliterate the enemy magic user or shut it down as soon as possible, either through the 5+ to dispel they have or shooting the enemy caster with one of their 3 sniperball cannons or dual Organ guns/helblasters and/or 40 Thunderers; at which point it becomes a race between who can get off the Purple Sun/Pit of Shades/Dwellers/5" Save or Die template first before losing their caster;

Incidentally where a Dual Slann works best; oh dear you've killed my Life General? No more Dwellers; oh well, Soulblight+Purple Sun/Withering+Pit of Shades/Okkams Mindrazor here we come.



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