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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-22-12, 02:22 PM Thread Starter
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Default Expanding the Wood Elves Magic

The Wood Elves Lore is considered to be the weakest Lore around.

Why?

1. 6 Spells only.
2. No Lore Attribute.
3. Only lore available to Hero Casters.
4. Signature spell causes only minor damage and slow random movement makes it unreliable. Damage is only useful against Skirmishers and they are rarely taken.
5. Fury of the Forest is minor damage against Skirmishers and they are rarely taken.
6. Hidden Path gives the unit Strider - when they already have Forest Strider, and in an army that is either MSU or largely resilient to non-magic shooting anyway.
7. Twilight Host is identical to Aspect of the Dreadknight - arguably the most useless spell in a powerful Lore.
8. Ariel's Blessing is a randomly rolled spell, which gives Regen, when the signature for Life gives the same effect, and a more effective lore elsewhere.
9. Call of the Hunt is the only remaining "Charge-allowed" movement spell. You can first turn Flank Charge a Wild Rider unit here - 12" Vanguard, 18" March, and then 2D6" Call of the Hunt. It also gives them an extra attack - which considering a 150 pt unit putting out 11 S5 attacks on the charge followed by 11 S4 Attacks is fairly decent, however, it's a one trick pony, a High Casting Cost, a none-resilient unit, an inability to guarantee getting the spell (you'd be foolish to take the lore on a l4 after all)... Yeah, not much fun at all.

So, what else does that leave us?

Obviously, we can predict that Beasts and Life will become available in the new book for Hero Casters.

So, assuming that, what other lores will become available for us? Every other army seems to be getting wider access to the spells - Ogres for example - Gut Magic soon became Heavens, Beasts, Fire, etc, Nehekharan's became Light and Death. Orcs... well, their Lores became more useable - Little Waaagh is arguably one of the nastiest if it's applied to any other army out there.

Fire - Fire and Wood? Not really.
Metal - Daith is mentioned quite a lot, for her Reaper and the Spirit Sword.
Light - Blessed by Isha, and with fighting the Undead.
Heavens - Naieth the Prophetess.
Shadow - Shadowfey, Dark Forest
Death - Angry angry forest.

I think that if any, Heavens and Metal would be Special Character only. Fire is obviously a nono. Light is unlikely, they don't seem particularly obsessed with Light and Purity.

So; Death and Shadow. Many people love Shadow.

But exactly how powerful will they be?

Life and Beasts both support huge blocks of troops to get the most benefit from the large number of augments. Unless Eternal Guard and Treekin get buffed, made more accessible in model terms as well, there is not much that exceptionally benefits these lores. MSU and movement wood elves do not get as much benefit as a Temple Guard block, or Spear Horde, say.

And what does Death bring?

Sniper Spells - to take down Characters and other Leadership Boosting Items (Stubborn Hats, BSB's, Standard's of Discipline) in an army with large amounts of Fear Causing models, Panic Causing Items, Terror Causing monsters. Leadership nerfs - among an army with Sniper Spells, Fear and Terror causing monsters. Fear and Terror causing spells among an army of Fear and Terror causing with Leadership nerfs and Sniper spells. A Strength and Toughness modifier on an army with High Strength and Long Ranged, accurate move and fire shooting, amplifying Panic Tests, among an army of Fear and Terror causing units.

And one immensely powerful Direct Damage spell capable of taking down low Initiative units that typically have High Protection against the typical strengths of the Wood Elves - e.g Lizardmen, Vampires, Ogres, and Nurgle+Khorne Daemons.

Shadow - An enemy slowing spell, in an army based around Shooting and outmaneuvreing the enemy, a Flying spell on a Treeman Ancient. A Strength reduction spell on an army with access to large amounts of T4+. A Toughness reduction spell on an army with lots of Shooting, amplifying their ability to shoot S4, and even make their S3 shooting powerful. A Sniper Cannonball spell capable of dealing with Low Initiative enemies that are typically resilient to Wood Elves strengths - Ogres, Vampires, Lizardmen, Nurgle Daemons. A Nuke Spell capable of removing above units, while Mindrazor amplifies the ability of having Ld9-10 Elite Infantry, that also happen to be stubborn, have multiple attacks and fight in two ranks...

Disgustingly powerful.

Opinions? Any homebrewed Lore of Athel Loren you can come up with?



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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-22-12, 02:51 PM
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im also quite interested where there gonna go with the wood elves magic, i remember when storm of magic got released theirs nothing i could find in there to point to the wood elves spells, so i presume there wont be a dedicated lore just for wood elves like in there current army book, i can see them being given access to shadow, heavens and beasts to tie in with them.
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-22-12, 04:15 PM Thread Starter
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There are two dedicated wood elf spells that all wood elf casters (including Drycha and other bramchwraiths) know, regardless of their actual lore. Summoning the forest and blocking line of sight just before the enemy charges your eg block.



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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-22-12, 08:40 PM
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I think they'll get a much improved athel loren and life and/or beasts for heroes... but I don't think they'll get any other lores for the elves.
What I do think will happen would be for the trees to get shadow since some of the 'darker' portions of Athel Loren are almost shadow personified (well treeified really).

... also I think you got call of the hunt wrong Vaz: I believe its move or bonus attack, but not both.


I actually quite like Athel Loren, which I guess makes me kinda stupid. Sure the basic spell is utterly useless (if you have it or a treeman people know to just not go into the woods) and the magic missile is pretty standard... but hidden path is great fun (treemen immune to gunlines is hilarious) especially if you can shield most of your army with an immune unit. Ariel's blessing is a good quality spell (although not massively appropriate for WE) and call of the hunt is one of my favourite spells in the game (marching into a unit's flank and then either magicking their way into combat or just strangle-rooting... either way its good.

... personally its Life that I don't like for WE. Perhaps its my total hatred for dweller's or just thinking that buffing MSU WE units is a bit of a waste of time, but I prefer Athel loren over life. Admittedly I normally take beasts over either of them (wyssan's is great on dryads and amber spear is everything that WE lack elsewhere).

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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-22-12, 08:50 PM
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I think they'll get a much improved athel loren and life and/or beasts for heroes... but I don't think they'll get any other lores for the elves.
What I do think will happen would be for the trees to get shadow since some of the 'darker' portions of Athel Loren are almost shadow personified (well treeified really).

... also I think you got call of the hunt wrong Vaz: I believe its move or bonus attack, but not both.


I actually quite like Athel Loren, which I guess makes me kinda stupid. Sure the basic spell is utterly useless (if you have it or a treeman people know to just not go into the woods) and the magic missile is pretty standard... but hidden path is great fun (treemen immune to gunlines is hilarious) especially if you can shield most of your army with an immune unit. Ariel's blessing is a good quality spell (although not massively appropriate for WE) and call of the hunt is one of my favourite spells in the game (marching into a unit's flank and then either magicking their way into combat or just strangle-rooting... either way its good.

... personally its Life that I don't like for WE. Perhaps its my total hatred for dweller's or just thinking that buffing MSU WE units is a bit of a waste of time, but I prefer Athel loren over life. Admittedly I normally take beasts over either of them (wyssan's is great on dryads and amber spear is everything that WE lack elsewhere).

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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-22-12, 10:43 PM
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I'm pretty sure that they will allow beasts and life for hero mages. I would love to be able to take a hero level beast mage! They'll probably update lore of athel loren as well. I have absolutely no idea what they will do, but I'm not worried about the lore changing too much. Though they will change call of the hunt to not charge in the magic phase. Seeing as how they got rid of all the other charge spells. the only thing I'm worried that wood elves will lose are the kindreds and spites, which would suck alot of the flavor out for me.

The lore of Athel loren wouldn't be too bad if wood elves could choose spells like high elves. call of the hunt is fun, and ethereal treeman or treekin are fun, but I won't spend points on a lord level caster to get the spells I need when beasts and life are better in just about every way. I would always have a lv 2 athel loren caster if I could pick his spells. otherwise I always seem to end up getting the fear or fury of the forest spell.

The real problem with wood elf magic is that You need a lord for decent spells, and I'd rather take life or beasts. If you could take a hero beast, I'd do that everytime. A level 2 beast with the divination orb, and a cluster of radiants branchwraith would be all the magic defense I'd need. But If I'm going to make athel loren consistently worthwile, you need a lv 3.

Personally I'm excited to see what they do with wood elf magic. I really hope they can keep it subtle and full of finesse, but still competetive. That's one of the few things I actually look forward to in the new book.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-22-12, 10:51 PM
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@tim/steve, I understand the dislike for life, It doesn't really mesh well with a msu style wood elves list. If a unit can be regrown, it's usually dead anyway. I never take the signature spell because it has no range, and dwellers below is no fun for anyone. But I've found life much more worthwile now that I'm running a unit of 6 treekin, and 2 treeman. regrowth and the lore attribute can both bring wounds back for them.

My main problem with beasts is the character buffs. I wish they were more usable, but Either I don't have close combat characters, or they are never in range. The transformation is too iffy, (if you could charge after turning into a dragon I'd do it, otherwise it's too risky) but the amber spear is always fun.
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-23-12, 12:08 AM Thread Starter
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Life is really the only way Imho to run MSU.

Lifeweaver in a unit of war dancers with Moonstone. Thanks to Lore of Life buffs, stays alive, dont discount the ability to heal a Dryad unit after redirecting to hold the enemy. Hell t7 killing blow regenerating units, that can be healed, is resilient to bs shooting (loitres at the back, skirmishing, typically utilising hard cover for a static -4, -5 against move and fire units, -6 against move and fire multishots), can be rehealed with regrowth, lifebloom keeps character alive, high ws, initiative and above average strength, along with the simple rocky horror move (its just a jump to the left, a hop to the right...) to teleport laterally to a forest, in which they become
stubborn.

HoDA on a BS6 model, gives your noble effectively 36-192 points worth of glade guard shooting at much higher accuracy.

Eagles - sadly can't take enough of these, they need to be special or 1-2 per choice, after how good sabretusks are.

Waywatchers - 18 of these nets you around 3 kb a turn, and around 2 other kills at least. Just dont ever look at a Dark Elf shade. Ive heard that apparently in the next book, each Waywatcher gets Sniper special rule if they so wish. It would be strange to see Ogres stay the best shooters in the world.

However, I play heavily comped (ETC) armies, with a 20-0 scoring rather than 3-0, so less of the chosen block, eg bunker, teclis, sirensong daemon ld bombs, so I am not exactly talking pick up and play games, you might find that terrain is lacking if you dont play by the recommended.



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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-24-12, 07:12 PM
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I'll have to try to put the lifeweaver with wardancers, or a beastweaver too. with life you need flesh to stone to make them good, so potentially not rolling it would be bad, but with beasts, you'll always get wyssans. I can see them doing quite well with the extra support. Which is sad because a unit of wardancers used to be one of the most powerful units in the game. Now they are really lacking.
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-25-12, 01:46 AM Thread Starter
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Flesh to stone is an awesome spell, but dwellers is just painful, I can think of very few units with a s5 core, so its like final transformation, only potentially nastier.

Regen is always useful. Ive used it to good effect to 'sacrificing' a spell and a unit of glade riders. He had a flaming sword cannon, so I decided to sacrifice earthblood on the riders. "stupid elves, regen has no effect against flaming" smoosh goes unit, when in reality the lone warhawk rider skirting the forest had the unit healed back to full health thanks to regrowth amd then proceeded to kill the cannon in cc 2 turns later, netting me 120 for 120 instead of 160.

You aren't meant to be in combat though.

You sit at the back, using your free reform and m5 forest strider skirmishers to sit in a tree line for probably a -3 to hit with bs shooting and stubborn ld9, you are deadly enough in combat to fast flankers to take them out if they threaten. WS and I 6 skirmishers are funny as fuck if an enemy puts Fast Cavalry anywhere near. Fantasys version of will it blend.

With a 5+ ward save versus spells and typically sitting outside of arc of fire or 34" range of enemy magic missiles they are safe.

Anything remotely ranked or killy appears (turn 3-4), teleport to the other side of the board. Between lifebloom and regrowth, congratulations you have just won 500 vps from your opponent. Points denial done the elvish way - and coming from the Beastweaver Eternal Guard Rhymer advocate thats saying something.

While they cannot now break Warriors of Chaos like 7th edition thanks to step up, it is a stupid WoC player that allows an enemy to get 15 attacks on their lord hittingnand wounding on3s, when the forced challenge simply allows you to decline and send your wizard safe to the back.



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