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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-18-12, 08:31 AM Thread Starter
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Default Tomb Kings vs Vampire Counts

So. I played my Tomb Kings against the new VC for the first time, and it did not turn out well. Granted my opponent had a very good turn 1 magic phase, it was a quick stomp. I now have to figure out a few things:

1. How to put a stop to the VC lore....I will need better dispel.
2. How to combat the Ethereal Skirmishers....not good. I will need magic weapons
3. I was under the impression that no two caster can have the same spell from the same lore....my opponent had two level 2's with the VC lore sig.

So I need a few tips on how to combat this.

Now I will lament:
It seems to me, granted after one game, that the revamped VC may be a little too strong if you are not packing an army well versed at shooting. No Str3 bows do not count. VC now do everything Tomb Kings do, but better...except shooting. VC don't do that at all. Examples I noticed:

Look at Grave Guard vs Tomb Guard. Almost the same profile, minus some Ld I believe. However, for the same price, they come equipped w heavy armor, while Tomb Guard only get Light. Add to that, for one more pt, you can get a great weapon. In order for Tomb Guard to go up one str, not two, you need to pay two pts. And the base cost is the same for a Tomb or Grave Guard.
Magic? Not even close. The last two spells in the Lore of Nehekhara are useless. I need to raise bodies, not mess with peoples stats or create vortex's. Nothing in the VC lore is bad. It also seems to me that TK got beat in the Monstrous Infantry category. I thought Ushabti were supposed to be good? In a stand up battle vs the Man-Bat VC there was NO comparison...I fear to see what the MI Ghouls will be like. I can hear those who don't agree w me now: "But you have chariots as core". Thats nice. Doesn't help much when VC can throw units of Zombies in the way, or worse, those damn 1+ Ethereal Skirmisher units. If I have no magic weapons or magical attacks I can't even hurt you? Oh surprise! Another undead army has no magical attacks except for the big boss special character, (See my other thread). And I heard that if your Vampire Lord dies, and another Vampire is present, you can pass the army's generalship to him...to avoid crumble? Can TK do that? Nope. Your Heirophant dies, so will you eventually. whew.
So in short...help me. I have no clue how to deal with them other than spam magic weapons, dispel scroll, multiple casters. I won't say they are broken or cheesy, there has to be a way to exploit their weaknesses. I know killing the Vamps will do it, but I'm not sure what the TK have access too so they can accomplish this. Lore of Death? Arkhan the Black? Horded Ubshati w Great bows?

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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-18-12, 08:54 AM
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Monsters? Can VCs call huge sphinxs and other giant constructs? Nope, The mortis engine and terrorgheist could be a thorn if your opponant takes them though

With VCs the key is as it always has been killing characters, catapults and monsters can do this pretty easily, if you can start to knock out the characters you win, all you have to do is do this without losing your characters,its not easy but it is doable, you can pretty much ignore the rest of the army then as most of the stats are no better than yours and your unbreakable so wont be running away.

combine charges knock out a unit with combat res and jonnys your uncle, the vamp is all alone and will fall, its tough to do but is doable

Take as many liches as you can to increase the chance of getting offensive spells and to reduces VC magic ability
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-18-12, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordofFenris View Post
So. I played my Tomb Kings against the new VC for the first time, and it did not turn out well. Granted my opponent had a very good turn 1 magic phase, it was a quick stomp. I now have to figure out a few things:

1. How to put a stop to the VC lore....I will need better dispel.
2. How to combat the Ethereal Skirmishers....not good. I will need magic weapons
3. I was under the impression that no two caster can have the same spell from the same lore....my opponent had two level 2's with the VC lore sig.

So I need a few tips on how to combat this.

Now I will lament:
It seems to me, granted after one game, that the revamped VC may be a little too strong if you are not packing an army well versed at shooting. No Str3 bows do not count. VC now do everything Tomb Kings do, but better...except shooting. VC don't do that at all. Examples I noticed:

Look at Grave Guard vs Tomb Guard. Almost the same profile, minus some Ld I believe. However, for the same price, they come equipped w heavy armor, while Tomb Guard only get Light. Add to that, for one more pt, you can get a great weapon. In order for Tomb Guard to go up one str, not two, you need to pay two pts. And the base cost is the same for a Tomb or Grave Guard.
Magic? Not even close. The last two spells in the Lore of Nehekhara are useless. I need to raise bodies, not mess with peoples stats or create vortex's. Nothing in the VC lore is bad. It also seems to me that TK got beat in the Monstrous Infantry category. I thought Ushabti were supposed to be good? In a stand up battle vs the Man-Bat VC there was NO comparison...I fear to see what the MI Ghouls will be like. I can hear those who don't agree w me now: "But you have chariots as core". Thats nice. Doesn't help much when VC can throw units of Zombies in the way, or worse, those damn 1+ Ethereal Skirmisher units. If I have no magic weapons or magical attacks I can't even hurt you? Oh surprise! Another undead army has no magical attacks except for the big boss special character, (See my other thread). And I heard that if your Vampire Lord dies, and another Vampire is present, you can pass the army's generalship to him...to avoid crumble? Can TK do that? Nope. Your Heirophant dies, so will you eventually. whew.
So in short...help me. I have no clue how to deal with them other than spam magic weapons, dispel scroll, multiple casters. I won't say they are broken or cheesy, there has to be a way to exploit their weaknesses. I know killing the Vamps will do it, but I'm not sure what the TK have access too so they can accomplish this. Lore of Death? Arkhan the Black? Horded Ubshati w Great bows?
Any number of wizards can have the signature spell, its deemed to be the "essential spell" of the lore and thus every wizard can know it. Personally I'd go with a pair of Lvl 4 Liche High Priests. Pulling out a Heiro with Lore of Nehk and a Lvl 4 with Lore of Light. Banishment = 3d6 auto hits str 4 +1 per light wizard, which you can include more of in your heroes. Shem's burning gaze (signature spell) does 2d6 str 4/6 flaming. (Heirotitan works wonders for this giving you an extra d3 to casting per spell cast.)

Lore of Death also works for focusing on the vampire characters themselves. I think you can overwhelm his blocks of summoning with banishment though for what its worth.

Screaming Skull Catapults are also awesome due to magical flaming attacks.

Refering back to the Heirotitan, he also has the bound spell Shem's burning gaze, allowing you to pretty much force irresistable if you so choose.

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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-18-12, 01:37 PM
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Wow the TK catapult is magical flaming attacks, NICE. I am assuming it uses the same stone thrower template. That is your answer, a direct hit from one of those bad boys is going to cause more damage than we can resurrect. In response to your statement of another vamp being present negates the army crumbling, it's actually not just another vamp, it's any character with the lore of vampires, so necromancers would suffice as well. However at the end of the phase that the general dies in, every unit takes a crumble test. The supporting characters don't come into play until the start of the next VC turn.

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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-18-12, 02:01 PM
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Fighting ethereal badness.

1) Flaming Banner on a skellie unit. Instant magic attacks
2) Overwhelm with CR with a Skellie unit. Bam. Crumble to dust.
3) Magic Vortexes. Yeah, I know, the TK vortex sucks, but it does destroy ethereal units.
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-18-12, 03:32 PM
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It's worth noting the Banner of Eternal Flame doesn't actually make your attacks Magical, just flaming.

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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-18-12, 03:35 PM
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It's no good vampires got everything tomb kings should of got and more, there's nothing you can do that he can't raise back easy and simply.


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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-18-12, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aboytervigon View Post
It's no good vampires got everything tomb kings should of got and more, there's nothing you can do that he can't raise back easy and simply.
... have you forgotten VC have no shooting?

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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-18-12, 06:58 PM
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Not to mention that the number of magic item we use to have has now been reduced to 9.
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-18-12, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farseer Darvaleth View Post
... have you forgotten VC have no shooting?
Not to mention we also have to deal with;
- lower Ld across every unit & character outside of Vampire Lords
- 'Hierophant' + 'Army General' rolled into the same package so no chance for 'inspiring presence' to mitigate our crumbling
- characters needing to carry the army
- no more re-casting
- no more loremaster power
- no more drakenhof banner or helm
- all the big damage dealers coming mainly from our Rares section

Sure, it sucks how TK's can still get hard-hitting core chariots, numerous constructs, fighty characters who make their skittles WS5+, a shooting phase, war machines...

You know what, it's almost like VC's & TK's are ment to be two entirely unique armies!!!

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Originally Posted by Ravion View Post
Not to mention that the number of magic item we use to have has now been reduced to 9.
Ah, but so far I think we've honestly gotten the best item list of the first 4 books, so we need to be a bit humble here.

- Orcs&Gobbos got the epic shaft and have a pile of worthless crap
- Tomb Kings have about 4-5 'good' items, with only one of them (the death mask) being OMG-amazing-good!!1!
- Ogres have 10 items total, but still have a number of duds and the Big Names are pretty 'meh' too...

On the other hand, I can find a viable and decently competitive use for every single one of our items!
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