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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-18-11, 04:57 AM Thread Starter
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Default How the new GKs scare each army

Oh no, yet another GK foreboding thread! So please let's try to keep it constructive. ?

As we've seen, the new wargear, powers and rules brought by the codex affect different armies in many different ways. Some will have to re-think their lists and strategy a lot. Some will only need to tweak a thing or two and be mostly alright. Some may even be cracking their knuckles and welcoming the new GKs as easy prey.

So which is which? Here's my 2 spent bolter casings, and plase submit yours as well.

-Daemons: Quite boned, though we're yet to see how much. The psy-negated inv saves are gone, which is a bit reassuring, but between the wonky DS-interfering units, odd force halbers here and there making you afraid to charge your GD, and purifiers scaring your hordes, as well as the army-wide Favored Enemy (which is quite fully, come on), there's a lot to digest.

-Tyranids: Not quite boned, but shaken. Nidzilla is a bit shaky faced with mass Force Weapons (though they have Shadow in the Warp to even things out), and a shooty GK list can pump out prodigious amount of S5-7 shots that will make every save on your heavy hitters count, and you'll me making lots of them. Again, purifiers will make hordes pick their targets carefully.

-Orks: The Green Menace may be one of the most affected armies that few people actually realize. Again, purifiers will bonk hordes. and you can do so much cheap stuff with them, like combat-squadding them for a double dose of 4+ unit-wide wounding on everyone. One of their power units, nobs with varying wargear, loses it entirely raison d'etre against the force weapon smogarsboard. Lootas can do a good job at knocking the Stormraven and other non-LR transports down, as well as forcing saves on the Dreadknight, but any interceptors will beeline for them. and they have zero psychic defense.

-Chaos Space Marines: Oddly less affected than it should be, really. Few people use summoned daemons competitively, and even the Daemon Prince doesn't have the explicit Daemon rule, weridly enough, though making him a psyker makes him vulnerable again. Maybe some people might swap their warptime princes for a Khorne mark? Otherwise, they best avoid charging zerkers at units with halberds. The only 2-wound units that are under extra danger from Force Weapons are Oblits, who are not complex anyway and if they are being charged, they are likely out of the game already. Melta/Plasma weapon combo on 10-man csm squads may become popular to help deal with Volton-knights. Deepstriking termicide may become very tricky, though. There goe the last use for chaos termies? And vindicators become yet more valuable to deal with paladins if the enemy wants to splurge!

-Vanilla SM: Average. Given the fact that waiting until you have melta range means bringing the heaviest firepower of the GKs to your face, melta and multi-melta in tactical squads may be replaced with more lascannons, who are also better for swatting Stormravens. Upgrading librarians into firing 2 powers a turn might become more popular to do some Force Weapon havoc on ICs with Ini 10. Smite will also be a good termi-troop hunter, even with the Ld penalty. Assault termies can make short work of Dreadknights and dreads. But Vindicare shooting the rosarious off Captains and other HQs may become a concern!

-Tau. Low impact: Interceptors will be scary against Broadsides, as well as shunting and other tricks will truble Crysis suits doing the jump-shoot-jump hiding trick; people may shift more toward Hammerheads upgraded to fire as Fast vehicles to drop the GK mech and then pump S6 plates on the move. However, Aun'va and ethereals in general curb-stomp a surprising number of the GK's best heavy hitters.

Kidding. April 1st -is- coming.

-Blood angels: Little to none. Fast Razorback spam works very weel agains the mid-ranged GKs, and if the tries shunting-intecepting a wily BA player can make him spread his forced wide and unable to support each other. Since GK don't seem too keen on power fists, though, Dreads with blood claws may be quite amazing to deal with squads. laughing as force weapons do nothing against its hull as they stomp silver heads. Getting them to assault range while avoiding psycannon fire may be tricky, however. Also, a new challenger arrives! Can Draigo beat Mephiston? Can the man who gave Mortarion an internal tattoo, stomped on Nurgle's prized daisies and foursome'd Lelith Hesperax into a sated kitten all by himself consistently outperform everyone's favorite dwarf Swarmlord?

That's all I got in me right now.

Last edited by Sephyr; 03-18-11 at 05:01 AM.
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-18-11, 05:33 AM
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you do realise that just about everything you said they were scary against is a multi wound model? The simplest counter is to avoid spamming multi wound models and focus on a build that allows enough fire to put them down with weight of fire, combined with a reasonable(depending on army) assault force to finish off stragglers.



or calm down, it's just a new codex. It's mostly harmless.

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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-18-11, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephyr View Post
-Daemons: Quite boned, though we're yet to see how much. The psy-negated inv saves are gone, which is a bit reassuring, but between the wonky DS-interfering units, odd force halbers here and there making you afraid to charge your GD, and purifiers scaring your hordes, as well as the army-wide Favored Enemy (which is quite fully, come on), there's a lot to digest.
The biggest things obstacles for Daemons are Warp Quake (which prevents Chaos Icons within 12" from functioning and stops units from Deep Striking within 12" of the Quaking unit) and Psyk-Out grenades. Daemons being forced to strike at I1 when charged by Grey Knights is a big deal for Slaaneshi and Khornate units who are either faster or as fast as Grey Knights normally. Daemonbane is less a problem than I originally thought since it turns out that the wounded Daemon needs to fail a Leadership test to be removed which shouldn't happen much with an Ld of 10. Still, it is something to keep in mind.

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-Tyranids: Not quite boned, but shaken. Nidzilla is a bit shaky faced with mass Force Weapons (though they have Shadow in the Warp to even things out), and a shooty GK list can pump out prodigious amount of S5-7 shots that will make every save on your heavy hitters count, and you'll me making lots of them. Again, purifiers will make hordes pick their targets carefully.
Tyranids suffer about as much as Daemons do, perhaps a little more since the big Tyranids are more vulnerable to force weapons (though as you note, Shadow in the Warp does even things out a bit). I think Tyranid lists that rely on a mix of big and small 'uns will be in the biggest trouble since the Grey Knights are equipped to deal with both. Purifiers and Grey Knight Strike Squads can easily deal with Gaunts and Genestealers whereas Terminators and characters can do an awful lot of damage to the big guys.

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-Orks: The Green Menace may be one of the most affected armies that few people actually realize. Again, purifiers will bonk hordes. and you can do so much cheap stuff with them, like combat-squadding them for a double dose of 4+ unit-wide wounding on everyone. One of their power units, nobs with varying wargear, loses it entirely raison d'etre against the force weapon smogarsboard. Lootas can do a good job at knocking the Stormraven and other non-LR transports down, as well as forcing saves on the Dreadknight, but any interceptors will beeline for them. and they have zero psychic defense.
Orks will undoubtedly suffer if only because there's literally nothing they can do to stop Grey Knights from casting their powers. Purifiers are pretty damn good at taking on Boyz (30 Boyz will beat 5 Purifiers, but will lose to ten). Super expensive units of Nobz stopped being good immediately upon 5th edition's release so Grey Knights beating them up with force weapons is more or less a moot point.

Lootas will be a big threat to Grey Knight infantry (at least the ones wearing power armor). I expect Purifiers to become a favourite target for Lootas what with their small squad size, high points cost and vulnerability to multiple S7 hits per round. Unfortunately for the Lootas, Grey Knight vehicles are extremely resistant to being Shaken or Stunned which is one of the Orks' favourite means of dealing with vehicles.

Too sleepy to add more input right now. Maybe tomorrow.
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-18-11, 02:49 PM Thread Starter
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you do realise that just about everything you said they were scary against is a multi wound model? The simplest counter is to avoid spamming multi wound models and focus on a build that allows enough fire to put them down with weight of fire, combined with a reasonable(depending on army) assault force to finish off stragglers.



or calm down, it's just a new codex. It's mostly harmless.
That pretty generic advice. And I pointed out several other factors other than possible doom for MW units: DS interference, possible interceptors getitng in artilelry's face on turn 1, etc. If I brought it up is because some armies do rely on double-wound models as heavy hiters. such as nobs. Not even talking about the fun wound-allocation-game nobs, but also theregular kind, and meganobs. That's quite a chunk of an army that will have to be re-thought, for instance.

As for the 'calming down' bit, no need to be so defensive. No one here is saying the sky is falling! It's just a thread trying to predict how the new dex will change the most common army builds. And in case you missed it, I listed three armies that (in my opinion; I could be wrong) don't have that much to fear. Feel free to contribute an analysis as to why an army can look forward to stomping GKs!
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-18-11, 03:04 PM
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-18-11, 03:31 PM
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Another thing Tyranids hate is Psyfledreads - Riflemen with S8 Autocannon. Instant Death to Warriors, thanks.

Likewise Eldar tanks can get in line to be bent over as they have to take a round of shooting from mass Psycannon/S8 Autocannon/S7 Assault Cannon before getting in range with Fire Dragons. On the plus side making the GK player fail ~50% of his Psychic tests with a hefty chance of Perils is rather fun.

It looks like the best armies to play are IG and Tau against GKs - both can torrent reasonably without having to aggressively take mid-table, but on the downside have no psychic defence.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-18-11, 06:10 PM
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You got it all wrong- Tau are in trouble because of the insanely retarded plasma syphon stuff. High powered plasma weapons are a necessity for piercing high-priority jackasses like Terminators. Unfortunately, Matt Ward has deemed these fellows too good for plasma weapons.

Thanks to this syphon, any unit equipped with them and any other unit within 12 inches of them treats all plasma weapons as BS1.

A crafty bugger will try to argue that a good 75% of Tau weaponry is plasma based, and this would mean most of my shooty army needs 6s just to hit them.

Ward's begging for something to happen to him, I swear.
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-18-11, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C'Tan Chimera View Post
You got it all wrong- Tau are in trouble because of the insanely retarded plasma syphon stuff. High powered plasma weapons are a necessity for piercing high-priority jackasses like Terminators. Unfortunately, Matt Ward has deemed these fellows too good for plasma weapons.

Thanks to this syphon, any unit equipped with them and any other unit within 12 inches of them treats all plasma weapons as BS1.

A crafty bugger will try to argue that a good 75% of Tau weaponry is plasma based, and this would mean most of my shooty army needs 6s just to hit them.

Ward's begging for something to happen to him, I swear.
I have not seen/read any of the codex..so excuse me for asking. But this has got to be a joke right?

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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-18-11, 07:15 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C'Tan Chimera View Post
Thanks to this syphon, any unit equipped with them and any other unit within 12 inches of them treats all plasma weapons as BS1.

A crafty bugger will try to argue that a good 75% of Tau weaponry is plasma based, and this would mean most of my shooty army needs 6s just to hit them.
How many units can get the syphon? However, I doubt you can make it apply for PULSE rifles. It'd be extraordinarily cheap, and anyone trying to make that point during a game would immediately be sentenced to the holding pen of shame.
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-18-11, 07:28 PM
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75%? Only one Tau weapon even mentions the word 'Plasma' in title or fluff description. But then again, Fireknives are kinda boned, and they're Tau's anti-Terminators. Do Markerlights work against the Syphon? If so then Tau should be OK.

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