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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-25-11, 09:25 AM
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Considering what the Iron Warriors say in Storm of Iron, the pre-heresy Marines were not "better" strictly in terms of performance, but that they were more like great warriors/knights than the paladins they are today.

They used to fight for the unification and protection of Mankind and its interests, but these days they're fanatical followers of the Emperor, although not every Chapter is equally zealous (compare the Space Wolves and the Black Templar, for instance). There is a huge difference between following an ideal and following a person, be it mortal or divine. You could say its like the wolves vs dogs situation, where the wolves are free and the dogs serve humans. But while the wolves work on a "might makes right" basis, the dogs do whatever their human masters tell them. So its essentially individualism vs lawful society.

Because of this, the CSM view the SM as fellow marines who abandoned their free thinking, which results in predictable behavioural patterns and thus predictable goals and strategies/tactics. So in a sense the "young" SM aren't "worse" in terms of performance, but their new way of thinking narrows their vision. The extent of this of course depends on the given Chapter and then on the given individual, but overall it works. And for safety's sake, I used the CSM perspective because they are the best at telling the difference between old and new SM.

The fool, the coward, and the ignorant proclaim that the warp is a realm of unknowable peril and indescribable terror, that it is the hell of countless ancient myths and legends. This is a lie, told by those whose authority is based on lies, to keep the masses terrified of the unknown. The warp is limitless power and its secrets are infinite; it is knowledge and strength, life and death, and the untapped potential to make and remake worlds. It takes only the discipline and the will to shape it; those who lack that clarity of purpose are liable to be shaped by it instead.

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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-25-11, 10:07 AM
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There's some fluff in one of the books, perhaps the Night Lords one? , where Post Heresy marines are basically called pale imitations of the proper ones. Something to do with the dilution of the technique and gene-seed making Marines not as good as they used to be.

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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-25-11, 11:05 AM
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I don't believe that the Space Marines now, are that vasty different in terms of combat ability 10,000 years ago. While some are missing parts of what makes them a marine, on the battlfield I imagine they are as good now as they were back then.

The main difference was in the way they were deployed, as prior they were effectively crusaiders, constantly on the offensive and capturing new land, now they are defenders.
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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-25-11, 11:16 AM
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Define 'tougher'.

Let's compare.

Original marines were a relatively fresh breed of super humans. The Emperor was alive and well, his Primarchs too. The technology that made them was not lost to time and tradition. Old marines are often referred to as immortal, compared to modern marines. What truth this has is often superfluous, like most of the background.

Current marines forces benefit from 10,000 years of fighting each other and xenos races - experience. They suffer from not being supported and lead in the field by their beloved, inspiring fathers (Primarchs) and are instead headed by their own kin. Geneseed is passed on, and on. Does it ever get old or weak? Who knows.
Technology hasn't really improved, but may have been streamlined or increased in efficiency. It's hard to say if technology has an effect since armour marks from 30k are still used in 40k.

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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-25-11, 11:21 AM
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I'd have to say Pre Heresy marines were tougher. Not that the tech has changed a lot in 10K years, but they were the Originals, and had'nt fought Orcs, Elder or any other xeno's before so that was a first. Plus they came directly from the Primarch's geneseed. I know all the geneseeds came from the primarchs, but those were like a new car, with no miles on them. Not that it makes that big a difference, but in my minds eye it just makes sense. Also, being able to fight with their primarch, actually being around them would make them fight all the harder.

Those are just my views.
you've got a point, but I think there were orks and Eldar back in the great crusade/hesery era.

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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-25-11, 01:14 PM
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I would rate the "modern" marines above the Pre-Heresy ones, just cause it sounds logical to me... No idea why...

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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-25-11, 02:47 PM
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I would rate the "modern" marines above the Pre-Heresy ones, just cause it sounds logical to me... No idea why...
Most likely because you're used to progress as time goes by. Unfortunately, theres no progress in the Imperium. Otherwise the Mechanicum wouldn't be a bunch of hardwired dipshits praying to a fucking toaster. Sure, they're cool as a concept (love them and I still hope there'll be an AdMech Codex one day), but when you take a more serious perspective they don't look so smart.

The fool, the coward, and the ignorant proclaim that the warp is a realm of unknowable peril and indescribable terror, that it is the hell of countless ancient myths and legends. This is a lie, told by those whose authority is based on lies, to keep the masses terrified of the unknown. The warp is limitless power and its secrets are infinite; it is knowledge and strength, life and death, and the untapped potential to make and remake worlds. It takes only the discipline and the will to shape it; those who lack that clarity of purpose are liable to be shaped by it instead.

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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-25-11, 03:38 PM
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Numbers and focus made the pre-heresy so strong. Each had a primarch and thousands of space marine, ultramarines and word bearers each had over 100 thousand marines, 100 'current' chapters. They had a set goal, if not human you die. They had their brothers right around a corner if things got difficult.

Chaos has weeded the weak marines out, 10k years of fighting, only the strong have survived, unfortunately the tabletop game doesnt really display them, more renegade chapters with some chaos god influence IMO.

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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-25-11, 05:10 PM
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Dont you know that OLDER TIMES ARE BETTER?

Wh40k applies that a lot! is a kind of philosophy! Post heresy space marines doesnt know how technology works, is a dark age.

Visit http://calabozocriollo.foros.ws Venezuela Gaming Forum

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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-25-11, 09:32 PM
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Considering the stagnation of technology in the Imperium, and the inability to re-engineer the failed implants that some of the chapters suffer from would indicate to me that current marines are watered down versions of the originals. There are a couple times in novels where CSMs call the modern marines weaklings, and while some of this may be just taunting an enemy, there is probably a grain of truth in it. 10,000 years of dilution of the geneseed has to lead to some serious degradation.

As to the crap about the preHeresy marines not having fought orks, or whatever, totally wrong. Didn't Horus save the Emperor from an ork warlord? They spent 200 years of the great crusade fighting the worst the galaxy could throw at them. All this after spending years fighting in the Unification Wars. The last thing they were was inexperienced.

I'm reading Savage Scars at the moment, and it retells the first real combat between marines and the Tau. Marines learn very fast, but their approach doesn't really change no matter who they fight, mash it from a distance, then get up close and personal.

Last edited by Khorne's Fist; 02-25-11 at 10:01 PM.
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