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post #1 of 112 (permalink) Old 02-21-11, 08:01 PM Thread Starter
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Default Mech Guard, the new lame

Call me old school, but I've seen power gamers pick up and play army books through the editions (since 3rd).

Now that 5th Ed. IG is in the full swing, I can't help but feel a a hint of disgust every time I see a fully mechanized Guard army loaded with Vets.

It's the same feeling of disgust I felt at Nidzilla, Tau Suit spam and Dual Lash when things were really bad and transports were a death trap. Guard have been out for how long now? And how many codexii have come out afterwards? With the new GK around the corner, I can't but feel that no matter what book comes out afterwards Mech Guard will continue to dominate till next edition. That was the case with 7th Ed. Fantasy Daemons and this is the case now with 40K.

Shit's getting pretty stale, but I'm pretty sure the reason why we see the extreme lame lists like RB spam is because of IG. They're pretty much the only question you have to ask yourself if you enter in any tournaments: Can this beat IG? If so, sign me up.

Discuss.
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post #2 of 112 (permalink) Old 02-21-11, 08:26 PM
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Mech Guard doesn't dominate, though. You've got something of a false premise there. A well balanced list from a modern codex can compete just fine with Guard. Is it a solid, modern list build on a 5th ed codex? Yes. Does it work? Yes. Build your list right and you can stomp it, however.

It isn't lame. It's how some of us enjoy the game. We try to do the best we can, expect the other guy to do the same, and enjoy the struggle itself.

I like what fifth ed has done and I like the builds we're seeing from modern codices.

They aren't dominating, they just happen to be a viable and solid build in the game as it stands.

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post #3 of 112 (permalink) Old 02-21-11, 08:40 PM Thread Starter
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Mech Guard doesn't dominate, though. You've got something of a false premise there. A well balanced list from a modern codex can compete just fine with Guard. Is it a solid, modern list build on a 5th ed codex? Yes. Does it work? Yes. Build your list right and you can stomp it, however.

It isn't lame. It's how some of us enjoy the game. We try to do the best we can, expect the other guy to do the same, and enjoy the struggle itself.

I like what fifth ed has done and I like the builds we're seeing from modern codices.

They aren't dominating, they just happen to be a viable and solid build in the game as it stands.
Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree.

They are by far the most powerful book. I know Guard players who transferred to 5th Ed. with the same list and saved 700 points to buy more tanks and more Vets.

And by dominate, I mean a book that single-handily changed the meta, much like Dual Lash in 4th and why we don't see any footslogging lists anymore.
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post #4 of 112 (permalink) Old 02-21-11, 08:43 PM
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Mech guard really isn't that hard to deal with. Most 5th Ed codices can deal with it perfectly fine.

The Website kept telling me that my profile was only 80% complete without creating a signature. Ain't no website going to tell me I was a lazy shit, no sir.
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post #5 of 112 (permalink) Old 02-21-11, 08:47 PM
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I personally found the transition to 5th edition as a negative for IG. Not because it is overpowered (which I don't agree with), but because it was written with only mech in mind. I miss a lot of the options that were previously available, and I hope they release a new cattachan codex (even though I have always been a cadian player).

With the current version, you should have a fairly good idea what IG players are going to bring to a tournament. That alone should be enough to help you, and a strong player will always beat a weak player. Now if two equal players faced off and the dice rolls were exactly average, then maybe we could debate it. However, not even then really... It would take for every army to face every other army with equal players and a consistent level of average dice rolls before you could really throw weight behind calling any army broken.

There will always be a "rock-paper-scissor" factor to the game. By which I mean, some armies are more capable of handling other armies. However, by no means is one army the best at handling all armies. I would also argue the armies most capable of making a potent all around list, still have some major weaknesses. We all know the current answers to ever list out there because of this. The real key is making the judgment calls on how much of what do I really need to counter that. Moreover, how much is too much versus the risk of not taking enough.

Just my two cents.

Last edited by misinformed; 02-21-11 at 08:53 PM.
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post #6 of 112 (permalink) Old 02-21-11, 08:50 PM Thread Starter
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Mech guard really isn't that hard to deal with. Most 5th Ed codices can deal with it perfectly fine.
These 1-liners don't really do it for me. Can you explain a little better?

So it's to my understanding that you don't think the IG book is powerful and that every army can take a balance list and beat a mech IG list. Or do you need a min-maxed RB spam to deal with it?

Dealing with it, is quite a general and meaningless statement.
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post #7 of 112 (permalink) Old 02-21-11, 08:52 PM
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Mech Guard have been out for, what 2 years...that's plenty of time to figure out how to to better them. In my area there's maybe 20/30 regulars who play Mech Guard (and other varients) and they are competitive, but no more so than the SW/BA lists etc.

Also, just because people are playing Mech IG lists doesn't make them all power gamers...some of them have been playing IG for many many years, and going Mech is just one varient.

You're a GK player (so am I)...there's plenty of talk going around many Forums on the Web right now that certain rumoured builds will be the new cheese...so maybe get ready to defend their new Codex once it hits, as it is a 5th Ed one like the last 3/4, IG included.

You made a comment about there been no footslogging IG lists anymore...not true at all. There's always some popping up in the armylists Forum, plus I know a few guys on here who field them all the time, plus all 12/15 regulars I play against (me included) can and do field Infantry-heavy lists.

Last edited by HOBO; 02-21-11 at 08:55 PM.
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post #8 of 112 (permalink) Old 02-21-11, 09:09 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
You made a comment about there been no footslogging IG lists anymore...not true at all. There's always some popping up in the armylists Forum, plus I know a few guys on here who field them all the time, plus all 12/15 regulars I play against (me included) can and do field Infantry-heavy lists.
No, I was referring to what 4th Ed. Dual Lash CSM did to the meta, and why there's rarely any foot lists anymore because such a list still exists.

Let me open up the discussion with a more argumentative description.

Mech Guard is very competitive, and in my opinion, the most competitive army in 40K right now. It completely changes the metagame and dominates what type of army lists are fielded in most tournaments. If you've ever played in a tournament, you normally design your army list to fight a certain metagame. The current 5th Ed. Metagame is (and this is a brief layout): TWC Wolves, RB Spam Wolf or Angels, Mech Guard, Dual Lash and insert some random local metagame stuff here.

Do I think Guard is a good book? Yes and No. Yes in the fact that it can make the most min-maxed options that kick ass in a certain meta, and no because more than half the book is crap. The reason is because Guard has a lot of options but not many of them are good. The good ones, however, are underpriced, have great stats and you can field a lot of them.

Could this be what GW intended? Probably not. But who cares, the average cost of a 2000 Mech Guard army is up the roof and people will buy X netlist from X discount retailer and roll face all day. I have played with and against Mech Guard. I have tasted the IG codex and I'm not impressed. I'm impressed by the power that it produces, but I'm not impressed with the simplicity it takes to play a army that can shoot well, deliver crushing and powerful salvos turn after turn, and remain relatively safe behind their AV12+ wall.

Back in 4th I saw a lot of foot Guard lists with a relatively few number of tanks. Maybe like 4-5. Only the Steel Legion players spammed their Chimeras and even so, it was within the sanity boundaries because you can only field so many of them. Now, everything got a discount and Veterans with BS4 were made troops. Vendettas and Valks are also extremely good for the points and Marbo for 65 points makes Lictors look like mental defuncts.

The list goes on, but it goes without saying that competitive IG (not IG as a whole) is an extremely powerful book. Now for those players who remember the days where Nidzilla and Lash shaped the metagame, I dare you guys to argue differently. 5th Ed. Mech Guard has changed the metagame more so than any other book I've seen thus far. They've also set the tone for the current edition and that's if you want to win, you bring equal or greater firepower or lose and die. This is the trend I'm seeing in 5th Ed. and it's not going to change in the near future.

Keep this going please, but with slightly greater and more elaborate refutes.
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post #9 of 112 (permalink) Old 02-21-11, 09:14 PM
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Mech Guard CAN be quite powerful, especially for armies that are geared for assault and have to run across the board (Nids and Orks) or who come on the board but have to wait a turn to assault (Daemons).

IG are definitely in the top 3 right now but I think the cost of making a top-tier IG list, the amount of models you have to build and paint and the amount of time it takes to complete a turn as well as basic transportation needs are some of the major issues as to why we don't see Guard being played more at the big tournies. Why bring such a large army when you can just play Marines and their 40 or so models? On top of all of that, most high end tournies have unique/special missions that have a tendency to favor particular armies over others. Beyond that the abundance (or lack there of) of terrain at high end tournies can really help or harm Mech IG's chances. There's a lot of variables that people don't think about when they see the top results for s given tournament.

At any rate, Mech Guard is not an unstoppable force of doom but it does take some strategy to beat. This is doubly true if you tend to only play Marines, as many people are, since Mech IG is a totally different ball game. I know the first time I faced a the new IG book, my opponent used a Chimera spam list and had something like 13 Chimeras and 2 Hell Hounds. My eldar, who had been crafted to beat Marines, simply did not have the volume of fire to get through both the Chimeras and the Guardsmen. So there can be quite the culture shock the first time you play them.

Honestly, the best way to beat Guard is to bring a well balanced list.
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post #10 of 112 (permalink) Old 02-21-11, 09:22 PM
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There isn't a meta. Go play magic for a couple of years and you'll understand what a metagame is.

Some things work better. Vehicles do, and there are weapons that suppress vehicles well while dealing with infantry competently. As such, autocannons are popular.

A balanced list does fine any any fifth edition codex can handle guard, mech or otherwise. Razorspam and the like are taken because they're good, not because it's "needed" for one specific list. People like to make lists that are well balanced, powerful lists. You're seeing those lists because we'd rather play a good game than half ass it.

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Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
I'm probably going to follow my usual Eldar tactic of driving around the table "circling and screaming 'I don't give a fuck' with my windows down and system up" and avoiding anything that looks scary.
Her(?) name may be slightly inapropriate, but she just needs love! And I just need to eat your face!
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