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post #11 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-04-11, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by TheKingElessar View Post
Rough Riders.
I'd disagree for 55pts a 5 man rough rider squad is a handy little unit and I rarely run a list without them (though I'm the first to admit I've gone off the deep end of wierd army lists don't use any Heavy Support in most of my IG lists) for the points they are a great distraction unit and with a large threat range can usually cause some trouble (they have krak grenades combined with fleet and a 12" charge can give vehicles a nasty suprise).
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post #12 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-04-11, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by TheKingElessar View Post
Bollocks. Swooping Hawks are bollocks.

One of the worst units in ANY Edition of the game, this incarnation.

Shining Spears are also pathetic. Rough Riders. Ogyrns. Whirlwinds. Thunderfire Cannons. Nork Deddog. Blood Angels Captains. Dark Angels entire Codex. Chaos Spawn. Most Grey Knights. Thousand Sons. Possessed. Baharroth.

I could go on.
Now, I know thats your opinion and all, but a few points I would make against them...

Whirlwinds - Great against Horde armies, cheap and cheerful tank
Thunderfire Cannons - 4 shots is pretty worthwhile you're getting a techmarine and artillery.. Yeah, the cannon is only AV10 it's still alright.
Dark Angels entire codex?! I have gone up against many Deathwing/Ravenwing combos and been completely destroyed! Most of my losses are due to DA...
Thousand Sons - I'm not being funny, but in a Rhino, they are rather good and nice to deploy.

Possessed - I'd agree.
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post #13 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-04-11, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Strange Dude View Post
I'd disagree for 55pts a 5 man rough rider squad is a handy little unit and I rarely run a list without them (though I'm the first to admit I've gone off the deep end of wierd army lists don't use any Heavy Support in most of my IG lists) for the points they are a great distraction unit and with a large threat range can usually cause some trouble (they have krak grenades combined with fleet and a 12" charge can give vehicles a nasty suprise).
Only if:
The vehicles are stationary
There are no troops nearby to shoot/charge you
They opponent doesn't know they have Kraks/are Cavalry
The enemy army has no Flamers
The rest of your army is so badass that a unit in charge range can be ignored.

...So, yeah - not COMPLETELY useless.

For the record, they are cool - I wouldn't have thought up fixes otherwise.
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post #14 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-04-11, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by GrizBe View Post
Carrying on from my fantasy thread...

Which units in your Codex are so woeful, pointless, and downright useless, that no general in their right mind should ever consider taking them? Are they something in your own army you've never seen the point of, or a unit in someone elses that you destroy laughably easily?

What units should never be used?
This thread is reminding of this blog post from 3++

The problem with this question is is you're not putting it in the right context. Without proper context we'll have plenty of people saying "that unit is a specialist and you just can't us it properly."

Are there units in every codex that are just poor choices and don't deserve a spot on a all comers list? Sure. SM has TCs, Whirlwinds, and Vanguard vets which spring to mind for obvious reasons (points to high, better choices available in the FOC, ect).

But thats the rub the units have no place in an all comers list, not no place in EVERY list. Homebrew campaigns, planet strike, battle missions all effect which units could be great for a list.

For competitive play there are plenty of units in each codex which are not a good choice, due to others being more cost effective. Take the game out of standard competitive play (read: using planet strike, battle missions, IA, homebrew campaigns) and those units may no longer seem useless.
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post #15 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-04-11, 05:05 PM
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I agree with most of the posters, although there are some notable exceptions:

Kroot?!!! Kroot are the main thing keeping the Tau even remotely playable. They're a fantastic unit, as long as you don't bother with a shaper or krootoxes. They can hurt the enemy greatly, have a 3+ cover save in forests, and can outflank. Either use 20 for maximum shooting, or focus on kroot hounds for CC power.

Lone Wolves are alright if you give them terminator armor, 2 wolves, a chainfist, and a combi-flamer. Thanks to the wolves, it's a lot more difficult to take them down through shooting, and having both the chainfist and combi-flamer allows them to threaten anything. Not the best unit, but not a bad one, by any means.

I used to trash Flash Gitz, until a more experienced player urged me to try them out, and now they keep winning me games. Give a large unit of them a transport (either a heavy support one or a trukk borrowed from boyz), all the gun upgrades, and painboy/cybork if you have the points, and you'll have a unit of nobz that can shoot. It's a great versatile unit in larger point games, that opponent's consistently underestimate.

Big Gunz are an artillery unit still worth using. They're dirt cheap kannon shots, in an army that needs them badly.

The Deceiver is worth taking, as few armies are completely prepared for him.

Ogryns are very tough, powerful, and especially useful in larger games, as bodyguards for your infantry blob.

Here are some units no one's mentioned that I can find no use for:

Heralds of Nurgle
Beasts of Nurgle
Furies
Boss Zagstrukk (always seems to get his entire unit killed)
Fenrisian wolves (way too easy to tank shock off the board)
Lictors (never seem to have an impact)
Death Cult Assassins
Flagellants

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The first casualty of war is always subtlety.

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post #16 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-04-11, 05:16 PM
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Kroot do suck. I find that they are too damn T3 for their own good, combined with armour made from crap and not being as numerable as an Ork unit means they are fragile. If I face a Tau army with Kroot it makes me smile since A) There is less scary stuff shooting me accross the table and B) They are ridiculously easy to take down.

Problem with lone Wolves is that it is better point for point just to have a Thunderwolf with a Frostblade and Storm Shield. More durable and has costs a lot less.

I have no trouble facing the Deceiver. Although the Eldar armies I consistantly use always have 10 Pathfinders in cover with a doom/guide farseer nearby.

Swooping Hawks do suck because they are essentially more expensive guardsmen with jump packs. No thanks.


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post #17 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-04-11, 05:36 PM
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Fen Wolves are ok. Not great, but very cheap, so ok.

Also, Kroot are great - they don't do a lot but speedbump...but that's exactly what Tau need them to do. Try charging Orks with them, and see what happens. lol
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post #18 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-04-11, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by TheKingElessar View Post
Rough Riders.
Disagree massively here.

The Guard's one decent, cheap counter-assault unit. They take a bit of getting used to but are definitely usable.

Shame the models are so ugly. Soooo ugly.

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post #19 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-04-11, 06:04 PM
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I think that there a lot of obviously bad units. Shining spears, swooping hawks, vespid, eldar have so many of the worst units in 40k its not even funny. No wonder they are going extinct. There are also some bad units that dont appear bad at first, Im talking of course about thunder hammer terminators.

Easily the most overrated unit in the game. Hammer terminators cost you nearly 3 tac marines per model. They are still T4 with 1 wound each. They are easily bubble wrapped. And walking units with no shooting is generally a big no no. But wait, you can use a land raider. No you cant, a raider for 5 hammernators costs 25% more than the terminators, more than doubling your cost. In addition you have to deal with the raider being completely unable to make its points back. Sure they work well against beginners and bad players who cant stop a raider, any good player will slag the tank with melta and tie the terminators up all game, or torrent them to death.

So you have 4 ways to run hammers.

-As a screen in a shooty marine army. This is the best option, but any real shooting list will just take your marines out from range and ignore the hammers.

-Run 20 or so and walk them towards the enemy, this is bad bad bad.

-run a single squad in a land raider, pray that your single deathstar doesnt get easily stopped and killed.

-double up on raider squads. This makes your hammers much more effective, and they also suck down half your points, after tacs you have nothing left.

Hammers are a great counter to deathstars, and are there as insurance for beginners who cant handle deathstars through tactics.

Last edited by ChugginDatHaterade; 01-04-11 at 06:16 PM.
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post #20 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-04-11, 07:14 PM
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Hammer Terminators get a lot better with feel no pain, which the Blood Angels can give them. This is the much needed defense against opponent's trying to bring them down through large volumes of shooting.

The also work well if you use Shrike, since you can attach him to their unit, and have them come in through outflanking, or you can just use Shrike's ability to give them fleet.

Still, you have a point. Despite being very powerful and difficult to kill, they aren't the best on foot, and a Land Raider more than doubles their cost. I wouldn't say 'never use them' though. They can work very well.

The first casualty of war is neither innocence nor truth.

The first casualty of war is always subtlety.

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