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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-18-10, 07:21 PM Thread Starter
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What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

Okay, first off I want to say upfront that I did not start this thread to be a “The current codex sucks!”-bash off. If you think there is something the current Chaos Space Marine codex does not do properly, fine. Say that, but be ready to offer up an idea to correct it.
I do think that the current codex did a lot of things right and addressed several problems that were present in the prior codex. Being able to tool out every aspiring champion to a comparable level with your lord being one of the big ones. I was practically doing cart wheels when I found that you could now run Tzeentch marked marines that weren’t Thousand sons. Changing the Defiler from being a stationary gun with legs (Why would you ever do that in the first place?) to a more mobile fire base I think was a good step.
However, in working to correct those problems I think they forgot some things when they crafted the current Codex.
1) Where are the Legions? The Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and the Alpha legion are big name Chaos armies. With the Horus Heresy Novels, and other Black Library publications that focus heavily on these armies, people want to play them. But at present all they are, are names and colors and nothing more. Do I want them to bring back the old 9-mini dexs inside of the main codex? No. I think that was needlessly contradictory. I think this can be address by taking a cue from the Current Space marine Codex. You have a series of Characters that grant certain abilities to represent the army in question.
The Iron Warriors I think would be fairly simple: Give them the stubborn special rule for all the CSM, Chosen, Terminators, Havocs and Lords.
The Nightlords are a bit more difficult to come up with an easy fix for just because of their character. There really isn’t a USR I can point to that would serve the Nightlords character, though giving them Acute senses to show they’re ability to see in the dark is a good start. The defining point of the Nightlords is their terror tactics. I think looking at the Blood Angels codex and more specifically the death mask rules is a good place to start. Give a special rule to select units, say Chosen, Possessed, Sorcerers and Lords that applies a negative leadership modifier to opponents they attack in close combat. The modifier would be cumulative with other modifiers. I haven’t had a chance to check out the new Dark Eldar Codex, but from what I’ve heard it may have some good starting points to look at for addressing the Night Lords.
The Alpha Legion… now there’s a challenge. In the past they’ve represented the alpha legion by giving them cultists that could infiltrate. But those tended to be less capable, less survivable, and less effective Imperial guard wannabes. More to the point, I never felt that that really represented the Alpha Legion’s belief in warfare, specifically the one that says to attack from a dozen different directions at the same time to inflict maximum disadvantage to the enemy while maximizing your own advantages. At a first thought, I think having a rule that allows Alpha Legion to booby trap terrain would be a good start. A rule that allows the Alpha Legion player to disrupt one opponents reserves might be a viable option as well.

2) Either give us back the Daemons or get them out of the book entirely. If we’re going to have Daemons, then give us Blood letters, Plauge bearers, Daemonettes, and Horrors. If we’re going to have Greater Daemons then give us Blood Thirsters, Keepers, Great unclean ones, and Lords of Change. If we’re not going to have them, then take them out of the book entirely.
3) Make the Daemon Prince more then just a Psychic powers dump. Give it options to really change it’s stats, Daemonic Speed, Daemonic Wings, Daemonic Armor, Daemon weapon options. Make it so that the Daemon prince can be a real monster but worth the points. As it stands most people I’ve seen just use him for a Lash of Submission with wings.
4) Abaddon. Yes, he is bad ass. Make him worth taking for the army, not just himself. Abaddon is arguable the single most bad-ass mother loving beat you in the face s.o.b. to come out of the Eye of terror in the last ten thousand years. He has managed to unit the forces of Chaos into a coherent force not just once but 13 times. Give him an ability that affects the army to represent this. All Chaos Space Marines count has having an Icon of Chaos Glory for free perhaps.
5) Personally, I think there should be a distinction between “Renegade Space Marines” and the “Traitor Legion Marines”. The Traitor Legions have been duking it out in the Eye of Terror for ten thousand years. They are hard and battle worn even more so then normal marines, while Renagade Marine are closer to their loyalist brothers in terms of operating standard. I’ll be honest, off the top of my head I’m not really sure what would be a good way to address this particular distinction in game. Perhaps Renegades keep the current CSM stats and options, while Traitor Legion marines get Veteran skill options.

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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-18-10, 07:47 PM
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First off, your post could be alot clearly by breaking it up a little bit into smaller paragraphs with spaces in between each one. As a wall of text is hard to read.

Secondly, you should probably check out this post which was only started a few weeks ago:

https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...ht=cHAOS+CODEX
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-18-10, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-A-C View Post
First off, your post could be alot clearly by breaking it up a little bit into smaller paragraphs with spaces in between each one. As a wall of text is hard to read.

Secondly, you should probably check out this post which was only started a few weeks ago:

https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...ht=cHAOS+CODEX
eh, I originally read that thread a bit differently then what I'm asking, but you're point is valid. I'll re-post in that thread and get a mod to close this one out.

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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-18-10, 08:25 PM
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Flavour.

But on a serious note, just more vehicle variants and fixing the units that Chaos all ready have. Give Termies something to either counter or equivalent to TH/SS, make Possessed into either a unit of normal Marines that can buy all sorts of upgrades or a special rule similar to that of the Ymgarl Stealers mutation rules.

Make all cult troops elites, and make Daemons god-specific, only summonable through a cult troop sergeant/unit (All cult troops count as having personal icons as standard gear) Collapse the Chaos Daemons codex so there can be more variety. Raptors should reduce all enemy leadership within 6" by one point, and gain an extra attack (Being vicious creatures).

Probably get rid of Lash and replace it with a different psychic power, same goes for Nurgle's Rot (Make it Strength 1 Poisoned 2+ AP4 template, a bit like the Bane Wolf) and increase the cost of it. Give Daemon Princes more options (Daemonic Gifts or God-specific upgrades like the old Axe of Khorne).

For Legion rules:
A Chaos Lord can take a 'legion mark' for a points cost, giving an army boost. Nothing too game-changing.
Black Legion: Units of Chaos Terminators may be taken as troops (To signify all the veterans in the Black Legion), less the 'Deep Strike' rules.

World Eaters: Khorne Berzerkers are counted as troops and you may take Bloodthirsters and Bloodletters as summoned Daemons. The Chaos Lord gains +1 attack and the special rule 'Furious Charge'. Sorcerors (As psykers) and cult troops of other gods may not be taken in a World Eaters army.

Thousand Sons: Rubric Marines are counted as troops and you may take Lords of Change and Pink Horrors as summoned Daemons. The Chaos Lord gains a force weapon and the Psyker rule and may pick two powers from the Chaos Psychic powers list. Thousand Sons sorcerors cannot suffer from Perils of the Warp. Cult troops of other gods and Possessed (As dust is unpossessable) may not be taken in a Thousand Sons army.

Death Guard: Plague Marines are counted as troops and you may take Great Unclean Ones and Plaguebearers as summoned Daemons. The Chaos Lord gains +1 Toughness and the 'Feel No Pain' special rule, and his close combat attacks are poisoned (4+). Cult troops of other gods and Chosen (Being sneaky) may not be taken in a Death Guard army.

Emperor's Children: Noise Marines are counted as troops and you may take Keepers of Secrets and Daemonettes as summoned Daemons. The Chaos Lord gains +2 Initiative and the 'Acute Senses' special Rule. Cult troops of other gods and Obliterators (Being imperfect) may not be taken in an Emperor's Children army.

Word Bearers: Word Bearers may take Cultists as a troops choice and may take any Daemons as summoned Daemons (arriving through Cultists rather than through cult troops). The Chaos Lord may take an Accursed Crozius (Force Weapon) for 10 points. He cannot take damage from the 'Perils of the Warp' rule from using this ability.
Cultist:
WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 3
T: 3
W: 1
I: 3
A: 1
LD: 8
Sv: 5+
Pts: 6
Wargear: Lasgun and laspistol.
May take:
An Icon of Chaos Glory (Re-roll failed morale tests) for 10pts. May replace lasguns with close combat weapons at no additional cost.

Iron Warriors: Iron Warriors may take two extra Heavy Support units than is normally allowed. An Iron Warriors army may not include Possessed or any cult troops. The Chaos Lord gains a Servo-Arm (1 Strength 8 attack at Initiative 1) and the ability to repair damaged vehicles of a Weapon Destroyed or Immobilised damage result on a 5+.

Alpha Legion: The Alpha Legion may take Cultists as troops. All infantry units gain the Infiltrate special rule. An Alpha Legion army may not include cult troops or Land Raiders.

Night Lords: Raptors may be taken as troops in a Night Lords army. All units cause a non-cumulative morale decrease as described in the Raptor entry. Night Lords may not take cult troops (Being staunchly Undivided) or Obliterators. The Chaos Lord must take a Jump Pack. All squad leaders have the option to take twin Lightning claws at 20pts for the pair.

I will add more to this, but for now I'm out of ideas.

Midnight

EDIT: Ah crap. Gotta copy this down into Word for my own uses now.

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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-18-10, 09:17 PM
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all chaos armies should get cultists. all armed with las pistol and CC weapon, may take special weapon

MoT immune from PotW

CSM to get god specific deamons back.

Cult troops as non scoring unless you take the relavent mark with one of you HQs

Possessed abilities as upgrades rather than random
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-18-10, 09:39 PM
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And did you bother reading my post AT ALL? I put four and a half of those five suggestions in there.

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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-18-10, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
Flavour.

But on a serious note, just more vehicle variants and fixing the units that Chaos all ready have. Give Termies something to either counter or equivalent to TH/SS, make Possessed into either a unit of normal Marines that can buy all sorts of upgrades or a special rule similar to that of the Ymgarl Stealers mutation rules.

Make all cult troops elites, and make Daemons god-specific, only summonable through a cult troop sergeant/unit (All cult troops count as having personal icons as standard gear) Collapse the Chaos Daemons codex so there can be more variety. Raptors should reduce all enemy leadership within 6" by one point, and gain an extra attack (Being vicious creatures).

Probably get rid of Lash and replace it with a different psychic power, same goes for Nurgle's Rot (Make it Strength 1 Poisoned 2+ AP4 template, a bit like the Bane Wolf) and increase the cost of it. Give Daemon Princes more options (Daemonic Gifts or God-specific upgrades like the old Axe of Khorne).

For Legion rules:
A Chaos Lord can take a 'legion mark' for a points cost, giving an army boost. Nothing too game-changing.
Black Legion: Units of Chaos Terminators may be taken as troops (To signify all the veterans in the Black Legion), less the 'Deep Strike' rules.

World Eaters: Khorne Berzerkers are counted as troops and you may take Bloodthirsters and Bloodletters as summoned Daemons. The Chaos Lord gains +1 attack and the special rule 'Furious Charge'. Sorcerors (As psykers) and cult troops of other gods may not be taken in a World Eaters army.

Thousand Sons: Rubric Marines are counted as troops and you may take Lords of Change and Pink Horrors as summoned Daemons. The Chaos Lord gains a force weapon and the Psyker rule and may pick two powers from the Chaos Psychic powers list. Thousand Sons sorcerors cannot suffer from Perils of the Warp. Cult troops of other gods and Possessed (As dust is unpossessable) may not be taken in a Thousand Sons army.

Death Guard: Plague Marines are counted as troops and you may take Great Unclean Ones and Plaguebearers as summoned Daemons. The Chaos Lord gains +1 Toughness and the 'Feel No Pain' special rule, and his close combat attacks are poisoned (4+). Cult troops of other gods and Chosen (Being sneaky) may not be taken in a Death Guard army.

Emperor's Children: Noise Marines are counted as troops and you may take Keepers of Secrets and Daemonettes as summoned Daemons. The Chaos Lord gains +2 Initiative and the 'Acute Senses' special Rule. Cult troops of other gods and Obliterators (Being imperfect) may not be taken in an Emperor's Children army.

Word Bearers: Word Bearers may take Cultists as a troops choice and may take any Daemons as summoned Daemons (arriving through Cultists rather than through cult troops). The Chaos Lord may take an Accursed Crozius (Force Weapon) for 10 points. He cannot take damage from the 'Perils of the Warp' rule from using this ability.
Cultist:
WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 3
T: 3
W: 1
I: 3
A: 1
LD: 8
Sv: 5+
Pts: 6
Wargear: Lasgun and laspistol.
May take:
An Icon of Chaos Glory (Re-roll failed morale tests) for 10pts. May replace lasguns with close combat weapons at no additional cost.

Iron Warriors: Iron Warriors may take two extra Heavy Support units than is normally allowed. An Iron Warriors army may not include Possessed or any cult troops. The Chaos Lord gains a Servo-Arm (1 Strength 8 attack at Initiative 1) and the ability to repair damaged vehicles of a Weapon Destroyed or Immobilised damage result on a 5+.

Alpha Legion: The Alpha Legion may take Cultists as troops. All infantry units gain the Infiltrate special rule. An Alpha Legion army may not include cult troops or Land Raiders.

Night Lords: Raptors may be taken as troops in a Night Lords army. All units cause a non-cumulative morale decrease as described in the Raptor entry. Night Lords may not take cult troops (Being staunchly Undivided) or Obliterators. The Chaos Lord must take a Jump Pack. All squad leaders have the option to take twin Lightning claws at 20pts for the pair.

I will add more to this, but for now I'm out of ideas.

Midnight

EDIT: Ah crap. Gotta copy this down into Word for my own uses now.
This would be perfect.

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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-18-10, 11:22 PM
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They need to just mix the 3rd ed dex with the 4th.
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-19-10, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
Make all cult troops elites, and make Daemons god-specific, only summonable through a cult troop sergeant/unit (All cult troops count as having personal icons as standard gear)
We should definately have 'cultists'. They are to Chaos SM's, to what Imperial Gaurd are to standard SM's. I do however think they should be Troop-choices straight up. I do see what you were leaning for with your "Word Bearer's" Legion mark, but I personally think cultists should be quite common on a battlefield than rare.

Cultists should be cheap, fragile, weak, but numerous and able to make summoning Daemons easier. (i.e.: when Deep Striking/ Summoned near Cultists, Daemons scatter less - if at all).

Your stats look spot on for the Cultists:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
Cultist:
WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 3
T: 3
W: 1
I: 3
A: 1
LD: 8
Sv: 5+
Pts: 6
Wargear: Lasgun and laspistol.
May take: An Icon of Chaos Glory (Re-roll failed morale tests) for 10pts. May replace lasguns with close combat weapons at no additional cost.
Maybe even add a Cultist HQ choice. That way we could have proper 'Cultist' Armies. Maintains/improves theme, more model selection, further tactical choices, I can't see how it could be bad. May need change the name of the Codex to "Followers of Chaos" though. Not that that's a big deal right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
For Legion rules:
A Chaos Lord can take a 'legion mark' for a points cost, giving an army boost. Nothing too game-changing.

Black Legion: Units of Chaos Terminators may be taken as troops (To signify all the veterans in the Black Legion), less the 'Deep Strike' rules.

World Eaters: Khorne Berzerkers are counted as troops and you may take Bloodthirsters and Bloodletters as summoned Daemons.
Chaos Lord gains +1 attack and the special rule 'Furious Charge'. Sorcerors (As psykers) and cult troops of other gods may not be taken in a World Eaters army.

Thousand Sons: Rubric Marines are counted as troops and you may take Lords of Change and Pink Horrors as summoned Daemons.
Chaos Lord gains a force weapon and the Psyker rule and may pick two powers from the Chaos Psychic powers list. Thousand Sons sorcerors cannot suffer from Perils of the Warp. Cult troops of other gods and Possessed (As dust is unpossessable) may not be taken in a Thousand Sons army.

Death Guard: Plague Marines are counted as troops and you may take Great Unclean Ones and Plaguebearers as summoned Daemons.
Chaos Lord gains +1 Toughness and the 'Feel No Pain' special rule, and his close combat attacks are poisoned (4+). Cult troops of other gods and Chosen (Being sneaky) may not be taken in a Death Guard army.

Emperor's Children: Noise Marines are counted as troops and you may take Keepers of Secrets and Daemonettes as summoned Daemons. The Chaos Lord gains +2 Initiative and the 'Acute Senses' special Rule. Cult troops of other gods and Obliterators (Being imperfect) may not be taken in an Emperor's Children army.

Iron Warriors: Iron Warriors may take two extra Heavy Support units than is normally allowed. An Iron Warriors army may not include Possessed or any cult troops. The Chaos Lord gains a Servo-Arm (1 Strength 8 attack at Initiative 1) and the ability to repair damaged vehicles of a Weapon Destroyed or Immobilised damage result on a 5+.

Alpha Legion: The Alpha Legion may take Cultists as troops. All infantry units gain the Infiltrate special rule. An Alpha Legion army may not include cult troops or Land Raiders.

Night Lords: Raptors may be taken as troops in a Night Lords army. All units cause a non-cumulative morale decrease as described in the Raptor entry. Night Lords may not take cult troops (Being staunchly Undivided) or Obliterators. The Chaos Lord must take a Jump Pack. All squad leaders have the option to take twin Lightning claws at 20pts for the pair.
I like this. I assume Noise Marines, Death Gaurd, etc... are all Elite choices normally - meaning if your HQ doesn't have a "Legion Mark" your Troops are made up of the Black Legion marines (and/or Cultists if we include them). The above said legions (Death Gaurd, etc...) can still be taken as Elite choices.

Personally I'd go further and have Cultists as the ONLY troop choice, so if you want to field any significant number of CSM you MUST have a HQ with a Legion symbol. I appreciate its a bit restrictive, but it could add for theme.

Regardless I do like this Legion system. I am hopeful it gets adopted as its very similar to what the Space Marine 5th Ed Codex has regarding Chapter Leaders as HQ choices.

I would have some Daemon conflict involved (e.g.: if fielding Death Gaurd you may NOT field Thousand Son's - Nurgle and Tzeentch don't get along) mainly for theme. Alternatively, allow players to be able to field conflicting forces, but bring back in the rules of conflict to discourage players from doing so. It may be childish but sometimes its better to let players feel free to avoid obvious bad decisions.

Then again, it could produce some interesting strategies. Who knows.
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-19-10, 02:31 AM
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There shouldn't be just one "Codex: Chaos Space Marines", there should be more...

For instance, "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" should encompass Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Word Bearers and general Undivided legions, giving specifics on their units, and ONLY playable in that codex, and giving special rules when you use them. For instance:

Alpha Legion Attack Squad:

WS 4 BS 5 S 4 T 4 I 4 Ld 9

Special Rules: Alpha Legion, each chaos marine squad gains the "Infiltrate" special rule.

This codex will list out all the units from the Black Legion too, listing Berzerkers, Tsons, Emporors Children and Death Guard. BUT, you are limited as to how many you can use, and if you were to take Khorne Berzerkers you aren't allowed to take Emporers Children. Also, this goes for Death Guard and Thousand Sons. And perhaps a limit on how many of these units can be taken (maybe 0 - 2 between the four).

Then, four more codexes!

Codex: World Eaters, Codex: Thousand Sons, Codex: Death Guard, Codex: Emporors Children.

Mainly because that would mean that it can be kept to fluff more, and introduce a whole bunch of new armies coming about!

Also, it means if you want to play legion specific armies, you can, but not only that, it gives you the freedom of the current codex.

This is entirely in my own opinion!
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