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post #51 of 120 (permalink) Old 12-09-10, 03:51 AM
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I agree special characters are simply for character and bring the fluff to the game. They are in no way over powered and it's ridiculous to even assume so. Also there was a time when you could customize (re:Rogue Trader) and yeah I don't want to see Bloodthirsters running around with lascannons, no thanks.

Hell in second edition when there was a psychic turn an entire battle could be turned on it's head just from one round between two psykers, but the game has significantly changed since those days.
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post #52 of 120 (permalink) Old 12-09-10, 06:31 AM
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I am not saying SC are OP or ruin the game by being unbalanced. Heck I don't even have a problem if you use Vulkan in your Salamanders army. I am saying they are used to over holes in ones army and hardly ever taken because of the fluff. People look over their rules, go gooey over something (WOW! Twin linked melta weaponry!) and then pick it. Or even worse dress the guy in different colours and say he is something original. You can claim your new captain is Casterre Nobryl, Scourge of the Tyranids but I just see Vulkan in Sunburst Yellow.

If you care more about winning than about having fun you play the game too much and need to get a grip on reality and need to learn that you cannot win everything. Hell most of us lost out on the top of the foodchain category because we play this game!

My marines are yet another army that draws interest. It is painted in tiger stripes and includes a large number of Sternguard. A lot of people think I need Kantor because those Sternguard become scoring but the fact really is you don't. A better general wins using the basic troops and tools at his disposal rather than relying on men with superpowers.

@Huggindatcharade: You answered your question yourself. You do not need Khan to take a bike mounted army. You could use a Space Marine Captain on a bike.

On a side note I wish that the next generation of codexes allows one to build their own special characters by having a list of options in each codex. For example pay 35 points extra if you wish your character bestow stubborn to the entire army. That would create originality and I bet people would use that instead of SC because you tournament gaming dicks care more about winning as opposed to being a human being, you freaks!

I do not like getting angry but there are so many fucking idiots that sometimes the moronicness of these people really piss me off!


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post #53 of 120 (permalink) Old 12-09-10, 06:47 AM
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lolumad bro?

Way to logic-fail.

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I am not saying SC are OP or ruin the game by being unbalanced.
Quote:
you tournament gaming dicks care more about winning
Quote:
People look over their rules, go gooey over something (WOW! Twin linked melta weaponry!) and then pick it
Quote:
If you care more about winning than about having fun you play the game too much
So according to your first post special characters are not broken or unbalanced. The rest is just the normal blahblahb WAAC strawmen arguments and other crap that those who are severely ill with forumitis say.

I am going to go slow with this, so you can understand my argument. Put your thinking cap on, and bring your sharpest number 2 pencil for note taking. Because you are about to go to school, sucker.

So special characters are balanced right? But I only care about winning and never leave my basement. If i only care about winning then I am going to use the best possible option for my army. If SC are balanced (which they are) than I have no incentive to take one over a regular character right? So why else would I take one? Perhaps for the flavor it gives me!
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post #54 of 120 (permalink) Old 12-09-10, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_Newman View Post
I am not saying SC are OP or ruin the game by being unbalanced. Heck I don't even have a problem if you use Vulkan in your Salamanders army. I am saying they are used to over holes in ones army and hardly ever taken because of the fluff. People look over their rules, go gooey over something (WOW! Twin linked melta weaponry!) and then pick it. Or even worse dress the guy in different colours and say he is something original. You can claim your new captain is Casterre Nobryl, Scourge of the Tyranids but I just see Vulkan in Sunburst Yellow.
So basically The other person stupid because you have no imagination?

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If you care more about winning than about having fun you play the game too much and need to get a grip on reality and need to learn that you cannot win everything. Hell most of us lost out on the top of the foodchain category because we play this game!
So we should apologize for enjoying a different aspect of the game?

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Originally Posted by Stephen_Newman View Post
My marines are yet another army that draws interest. It is painted in tiger stripes and includes a large number of Sternguard. A lot of people think I need Kantor because those Sternguard become scoring but the fact really is you don't. A better general wins using the basic troops and tools at his disposal rather than relying on men with superpowers.
A better General wins because he uses the resources at his disposal better than his opponent, if we both have a lot of Sterngaurd in our army and I use Pedro and you don't who's using them most effectively? I'm not saying your wrong to exclude Kantor, but by what right do you persecute others for playing differently, your way is not necessarily the right/best way.
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post #55 of 120 (permalink) Old 12-09-10, 07:42 AM
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Stephen dunceman has every right to persecute us WAAC players. Clearly he is a superior human being. You can tell by his flawless style when arguing his points. Or by his amazingly painted tiger marines!
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post #56 of 120 (permalink) Old 12-09-10, 08:13 AM
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If anything SCs (at least in C:SM, where most of the examples seem to be coming from) encourage creativity more the discourage it.

Look at it this way: I want a Sternguard-Heavy army, and i want my special rules to reflect this. I then have a choice, i can use a regular Captain and get generic Chapter Tactics, or i can throw in Kantor and get a rule tailored specifically for the army i'm trying to play. Now that my Sternguard are scoring, i don't have to water down my force with too many lesser, non-elite chumps, because regular Troops are for punks.

If i don't include Kantor, I have to devote more points towards Troops units, thus kicking my idea of a super-elite strike force in the nuts before it even gets off the ground.

Furthermore, if i want a lolcalvary Bike army that outflanks, i use Kor'Sarro Khan on Moondraken

If i want my marines to be THE GREATEST OF THEM ALL (or Angry Marines) i use Marneus Calgar.
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post #57 of 120 (permalink) Old 12-09-10, 08:23 AM
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I strongly disagree there. As everyone has so vehemently expressed in this thread and others, this game is about 'your creativity.' So, it's being 'creative' until a player takes an established character and makes them their own. That's ridiculous.

So, if I have a fluffy Chaos Army with Khorne-tendencies, full of berserkers, but I don't want to call them the World Eaters so I can't run Kharn?
Basically, it seems like, at least for my codex, you are saying 'Unless you run the Death Guard, Black Legion, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children or World Eaters you can't use the SC given.' Which is... well... ri-goddamn-diculous.

You're exactly right Boc, people should not be punished for trying to be a bit creative. That goes against the whole ethos of the game.

I play Blood Angels, that's how my army is painted so I have lots of SC to choose from, I often used Dante or Mesphiston or a plain old regular libby. My friend plays Flesh Tearers, that's how he's painted up. So he can have Gabriel Seth, Asteroth and the Sanginor in his force. He can also have Brother Corbulo though, someone who although is not Brother Corbulo fufils the same role for the Flesh Tearers. Maybe not in the same way with exactly the same tools, but functionally identical. I'm not going to turn around to him and slag him off for scratch building a Flesh Tearers Corbulo when I'm using the model off the shelf. It is me who is being uncreative not him.

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Last edited by Aramoro; 12-09-10 at 08:25 AM.
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post #58 of 120 (permalink) Old 12-09-10, 08:25 AM
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Wow mucho hostility.
here i go.
I think If we had options to Tailor make our own special characters that would be awesome. But Even if i Had such List and i could make a character Carbon copy of Kharn abilities and all i wouls still take Kharn casue i really like him.
I am sorry if this upsets you. but if you asked nicely I would run the Much more hardy Daemon Prince with the Mark of Nurgle and Warptime.
In fact i played a game a while back with someone who said he was gonna change his whole list if i fielded abbadon, while i thought this was crazy i just used the points for 2 plain Daemon princes with wings and warptime with no mark, I think he would have had an easier time dealing with abbadon.

If you really have a mental issue with special character to the point that you start to twitch and mumble to yourself the whole time just kindly explain to your opponant that you are a douche bag and you don't give a flying fuck how much time and money they put into their army or if they even have fun. because you have issues and damnit they demand to be satiated.

or you could say hey or you gonna be running so and so special character cause i am really tired of playing against him , if you don't use that character ill let you pick something from my list that i will not use.

it might work and you both would be loosing a vital part of each armies strategy. becasue just becasue your list doesn't include a special character does not mean its a bad list and neither does having them in your army mean its an awesome list.

but i will say with the way things are now especially with space marines not choosing a character can make your army illegal. so if you are willing to let your opponet bend the rules just so you don't see a special character then you can complain all you want.

for example my deamon prince will be rinding in the Land raider with the bezerkers he is joined to becasue thats where Kharn usually sits but since looking at Kharn chaps your ass Ill do this instead. haha dude you need to meditate and let it go. they already over price all special characters as it is.

I wonder if you also have a problem with Suck ass special characters. Like Fabius Bile I used to run him just for fun never won a damn game with him but i still had a blast. any way i am done now.

Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion. - Sun Tzu
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post #59 of 120 (permalink) Old 12-09-10, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Stephen_Newman View Post
I am not saying SC are OP or ruin the game by being unbalanced. Heck I don't even have a problem if you use Vulkan in your Salamanders army. I am saying they are used to over holes in ones army and hardly ever taken because of the fluff. People look over their rules, go gooey over something (WOW! Twin linked melta weaponry!) and then pick it. Or even worse dress the guy in different colours and say he is something original. You can claim your new captain is Casterre Nobryl, Scourge of the Tyranids but I just see Vulkan in Sunburst Yellow.
That is because you lack the imagination or ability to grasp the basic principles of the hobby. The codex does not describe every living person in the entire galaxy. Casterre Nobryl may look like Vulkan and act like Vulkan but He is explicitly NOT Vulkan. He is Casterre Nobryl, he has a name badge and everything.


Quote:
If you care more about winning than about having fun you play the game too much and need to get a grip on reality and need to learn that you cannot win everything. Hell most of us lost out on the top of the foodchain category because we play this game!
I enjoy playing the Sanguinary Guard armies. I think it's fun and looks really good on the Tabletop. Are you seriously saying we need to get a grip on reality when playing with my toy soldiers pretending their from 38,000 years in the future?

Quote:
My marines are yet another army that draws interest. It is painted in tiger stripes and includes a large number of Sternguard. A lot of people think I need Kantor because those Sternguard become scoring but the fact really is you don't. A better general wins using the basic troops and tools at his disposal rather than relying on men with superpowers.
You copied your idea from someone else, you should probably show a little creativity and originality and make it your own. A 'Counts As' Pedro would make perfect sense for you force.

Quote:
On a side note I wish that the next generation of codexes allows one to build their own special characters by having a list of options in each codex. For example pay 35 points extra if you wish your character bestow stubborn to the entire army. That would create originality and I bet people would use that instead of SC because you tournament gaming dicks care more about winning as opposed to being a human being, you freaks!

I do not like getting angry but there are so many fucking idiots that sometimes the moronicness of these people really piss me off!
If you build them yourself they are not SC's are they, they're just Characters. I want to be able to play my Blood Angels with Dante, not someone a bit like Dante. But at the same time I'm not going to moan with someone playing Knights of Blood with their 'counts as' Dante. You're right people would use your idea, because it's broken, fundamentally flawed.

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Last edited by Aramoro; 12-09-10 at 09:40 AM.
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post #60 of 120 (permalink) Old 12-09-10, 09:38 AM
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So using a counts-as special character is unimaginative, and makes me a WaaC player, eh?

What if I want to play Alien Hunters. The best way to represent this is to run my 'Death Watch Captain', who just happens to use a powerfist, powered up 'anti-alien' stormbolter, and has a company standard. and since my guys are alien hunters, they've seen pretty much every vile alien across the galaxy, so they're going to be stubborn. and since the Deathwatch is renowned for special ammo, of course I'm going to have plenty of sternguard equivalents, which are going to have to be able to score, since they're the primary fighting force of the alien hunters. I will have a few new guys in my force who have yet to get their special ammo, but of course one of the premier fighting forces of the galaxy is going want it's initiates to prove themselves, hence the presence of basuc tac squads.

Oh wait, what was that- I just described pedro kantor in his entirety! without a single reference to the crimson fists! in fact, I've just used kantor to form an inquisitorial force. How does that lack imagination. If I want to play this army, and just buy a marine captain with powerfist, stormbolter and company standard, and give my opponent a heads up, what is wrong with that? He's got all the equipment of Kantor, except he's not Kantor- he's Deathwatch Captain Killwin! (couldn't think of a better name off the top of my head)

Counts-as special characters are hardly unimaginative. In fact I would encourage them.

EDIT: And as for having special rules be applied to a basic template captain/chapter master, I initially thought this would be a good idea. Until I realised that this could lead to a horrifying ordeal of combining special character rules that goes something like this.

Player 1- "Hey guys, this is my very own character. His name is Marneus Vulkan Kantor-Shrike. He is the love child of Vulkan, Marneus, Shrike and Pedro. Marines are kinky that way. He gives my entire army both stubborn and fleet, makes my sternguard scoring, makes my flamers and meltas twin-linked, and allows me to decide whether I pass or fail any morale check."

Player 2- "Oh fuckballs"

How is this template going to improve the 'evil WaaC players' using special characters as a crutch?

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Last edited by coke123; 12-09-10 at 09:48 AM.
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