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post #1 of 53 (permalink) Old 11-29-10, 08:05 PM Thread Starter
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Default Land Raider Achilles

There may be a thread on here about this particular variant but I didn't see it. What I am curious about is why everyone on the other forums seem to have issue with it? The biggest complaints seem to be coming from Eldar because of the Lance immunity but they have D-cannons, Wraithlords, Avatars, and Fire Prisms to compensate... where is the imbalance there?

I realize that you can math hammer it out but games rarely play with just one model sitting and shooting at one model, or maybe we just use better tactics where I play?
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post #2 of 53 (permalink) Old 11-29-10, 08:51 PM
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It's pretty fucking hard to kill for it's points, but it only has one structure point, can't carry much and as far as I know wouldn't be fielded outside of Apocalypse games (I don't know about everyone else, but for us you play with your codex in most games, Apoc is where Forgeworld rules and of course the Apoc rules are allowed to be used), where there bigger threats to tanks than Melta Guns and Lance weapons. I for one think it's pretty damn awesome, and would happily buy one if it weren't for being skint . Still, might have a stab at kitbashing one with a ton of Plasticard and that Land Raider I have lying around, once I actually finish my 1750 army.
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post #3 of 53 (permalink) Old 11-29-10, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperors Knights View Post
There may be a thread on here about this particular variant but I didn't see it. What I am curious about is why everyone on the other forums seem to have issue with it? The biggest complaints seem to be coming from Eldar because of the Lance immunity but they have D-cannons, Wraithlords, Avatars, and Fire Prisms to compensate... where is the imbalance there?
Only one of which people reliably take in competitive armies (Prism) and another (Wraithlord) which is never going to be able to reach the Raider, since it can drive (and shoot with Machine spirit) faster than it can run.

Oh, and you need 2x Prisms in order to gain a S10 AP1 shot, otherwise it's just an extremely overpriced Lascannon.

The reason why people hate it (I assume) is that 90% of armies use melta guns for their anti-tank rather than Lascannons. Melta guns glance it on 6s. Period.

Giving your MBT melta/ordnance immunity for 50pts is pretty damn strong. Only problem is the loss of transport capacity really. It can still contest an objective while giving the finger to the infantry squad it just drove through just fine.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
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post #4 of 53 (permalink) Old 11-29-10, 11:28 PM
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sethis nailed it on the head

I LOVE STEALING. I LOVE TAKING THINGS- Bender

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post #5 of 53 (permalink) Old 11-30-10, 02:42 AM Thread Starter
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So really the issue is people have to add more to their lists which probably causes new sales for GW and FW... But otherwise it's a 300 point monster... It just seems that it is still as vulnerable as most monsterous creatures but you don't get special weapon rules against it... Yet it cost much more and has no invulnerable save like demon princes, avatars, deceivers, etc...

The best weapon in the SM codex shoots 24 inches, after that we get no special boost and most of our weapons crap out at 48" or less... We finally get our MC equivalent and everyone complains it is too hard to kill... It's a Land Raider!! It is supposed to be hard to kill. I was pissed when I found the lance weapons nullified my 250 point transport and now I have to pay an extra 50 just to have your weapons as effective as my melta and missle launchers and power fists and Thunder Hammers...

I'm sorry but unless SM gets a primarch who can truly go toe to toe with an avatar it makes no sense to argue this is too tough to fight against... Unless you are running close with a bunch of transports this really only has one weapon, stay outside of 24 and it's not scary, don't eldar vehicles have special rules negating the extra dice on melta weapons on the front and sides?

Just ignore it and know I spent 300 on a thunder fire cannon and a bunker with a multimelta.

Last edited by Emperors Knights; 11-30-10 at 02:45 AM.
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post #6 of 53 (permalink) Old 11-30-10, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperors Knights View Post
So really the issue is people have to add more to their lists which probably causes new sales for GW and FW... But otherwise it's a 300 point monster... It just seems that it is still as vulnerable as most monsterous creatures but you don't get special weapon rules against it... Yet it cost much more and has no invulnerable save like demon princes, avatars, deceivers, etc...

Why compare a vehicle to a monstrous creature? For the most part different weapons are used to take down the two; melta/str9-10/lance for land raiders and plasma/missiles for monstrous creatures. Not to mention the fact that monstrous creatures have more often than not 3+ armor saves. The issue is also not that people have to add more to their lists. The issue is that you have tailor your list to specifically beat this thing. Eldar for example rely more on lances and the like to take down armor, yet that is all nullified by this thing. Another example would be SM who rely more on melta to take down AV14, but knowing they may come up against this it forces the player to take vindis or other str 10 weapons that may not be incorporated in a balanced list.

The best weapon in the SM codex shoots 24 inches, after that we get no special boost and most of our weapons crap out at 48" or less... We finally get our MC equivalent and everyone complains it is too hard to kill... It's a Land Raider!! It is supposed to be hard to kill. I was pissed when I found the lance weapons nullified my 250 point transport and now I have to pay an extra 50 just to have your weapons as effective as my melta and missle launchers and power fists and Thunder Hammers...

You fail to mention how tactically effective this version of the land raider is. PotMS allows it to use its two multimeltas on two different tanks and the range downside of melta (also being in melta range of your opponent) is negated by its special rules. It also has just enough room to be a godly objective camper and YES that is a good way to use it. I would gladly pay 300 points or so to basically guarantee an objective for myself. And why do you keep comparing a tank to a monstrous creature. It's like comparing apples to oranges....

I'm sorry but unless SM gets a primarch who can truly go toe to toe with an avatar it makes no sense to argue this is too tough to fight against... Unless you are running close with a bunch of transports this really only has one weapon, stay outside of 24 and it's not scary, don't eldar vehicles have special rules negating the extra dice on melta weapons on the front and sides?

You know what works really well against avatars? SS/TH termies. Hell they are arguably one of the best melee units around and throw in a good IC or librarian and your set. You also seem to keep forgetting about the -1 on the vehicle damage table. I play tyranids so the melta/lance nullification is not a big deal for me as I use MCs and tyrranofex to take down AV14 more often than zoans, but I think the -1 is a little too far.

Just ignore it and know I spent 300 on a thunder fire cannon and a bunker with a multimelta.
When I see the cost of this I won't be thinking that at all. I'll be thinking, "well there's an objective I'll likely not be able to take from my opponent."
My problem with it is that this vehicle can pretty much fill any role and excel at it while being extremely hard to take down with a balanced list. It is simply the best objective camper out there, yes paying 300 points to hold an objective for the entire game is definitely worth it. It also is vicious in close range fights due to PotMS, immunity to melta, and the two multi meltas. I think if they removed the -1 on the vehicle damage chart, or removed its transport capacity it would be valued at 300 fairly. As is though I would definitely price it higher.
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post #7 of 53 (permalink) Old 11-30-10, 04:15 AM
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So let me get this straight, the LRA removes the effects of Lance and Melta (the weapons designed to kill it), has PoTMS, Extra Armour, 2 Multi-Meltas, all for 300 pts and a reduced transport capacity? Oh, and don't forget its magic -1 on the damage chart, just because.

Yeah, i'm calling BS on that one.

The time i see a SM combat squad rolling towards me in a Super-Monolith armed with twin multi-meltas (one of which it can ALWAYS fire) is the time i pack up my shit and leave.
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post #8 of 53 (permalink) Old 11-30-10, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathscythe4722 View Post
So let me get this straight, the LRA removes the effects of Lance and Melta (the weapons designed to kill it), has PoTMS, Extra Armour, 2 Multi-Meltas, all for 300 pts and a reduced transport capacity? Oh, and don't forget its magic -1 on the damage chart, just because.

Yeah, i'm calling BS on that one.

The time i see a SM combat squad rolling towards me in a Super-Monolith armed with twin multi-meltas (one of which it can ALWAYS fire) is the time i pack up my shit and leave.
Just for the record, it says he plays space wolves, so if he is packing up his shit and leaving, you know its serious.

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post #9 of 53 (permalink) Old 11-30-10, 04:36 AM
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TWC with hammers. Boom, done. But yeah, melta spam is about as effective as throwing dog crap at it. However, razorspam should still do away with it moderately well.

The Website kept telling me that my profile was only 80% complete without creating a signature. Ain't no website going to tell me I was a lazy shit, no sir.
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post #10 of 53 (permalink) Old 11-30-10, 04:54 AM
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My regular group have a lot of FW models and use them a lot, even in regular 40K games, but this is a bit over the top even for FW. A mate of mine rang FW yesterday about how crazily resilient the Achilles is, and they replied back saying that it will be changed somewhat in the printed IA10, maybe major changes.

They've had quite a few calls about the Achilles apparently...FW actually listen as well, unlike the parent company.
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