Gamism vs. Hobbism (Stuff about armybuilding and AS) - Page 5 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #41 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-07-10, 09:06 PM
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One thing I find annoying about this thread is that people keep complaining that people playing themed lists are basically autofail against competitive lists. This is not the case. I am the head of my gaming group(youthworker and we use the youth centre, tis very helpful others should try it ) so I play the new players to give them a grasp of the game and how the basics work.

New guy had the marine list that won a tournament printed out and used it. I had a BA list with scouts, normal bike squadrons and a techmarine among other things, basically things that most BA players wouldn't go near. I destroyed him completely. I had an unfluffly but weakened list, he had a powerbuild And i tabled him. main problem was he didn't have a proper grasp on tactics and the rules. A player can use a themed army very well as long as they understand the game well.

More examples. Entering a tournament soon and a lot of people say that I should be running my jump pack marines in transports. Those guys make back their points every single game. another guy said my list would be destroyed by a lash list. I wasn't lashed onced in my game agaisnt him. you understand the game, you're doing a lot more than the people who "decide" what shoudl and should not be taken. for that reason I find the more competitive players, who understand the game much better than the fluffmasters, give much better games. if a fluffmaster knew the rules as well as a comp player then it'd be a different story.

If you shit in one hand and wish in the other we all know which one will fill up faster.

And as I walk in the valley of the shadow of death I will have no fear For I am the scariest mother f*cker in that goddamned valley!

Damn nature, You Scary!!!
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post #42 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-07-10, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by GrizBe View Post
Theres no heart left in the game.
I'd agree with that, these days all people care about is making army x more competitive than army y and labeling army z as being useless, actually playing the game just for the sake of playing stopped LOOOOOOONG ago
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is There something wrong with wanting to win every game?
absolutely not, but there is something wrong in expecting to win every game and acting like a dickhead when you don't, which unfortunately is becoming more common.
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Originally Posted by Kaizer View Post
- What are your thoughts about restrictions and army building selections systems? Do you use them?
there are already restrictions and building selections, your restriction is the points, your selections are the FOC, restricting anything else is usually followed by a piss poor reason as to why usually centered around "I can't beat X, X must be banned"
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- Do they improve the game or do they make it into something else?
they create something else, and help to further tip the extremely unbalanced nature of 40k even further
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- What makes you love your army and what motivates your army building?
I love my army because its Tanks (NOT TRANSPORTS!!!) and I love tanks, I also love it because its themed, but nowhere near competitive, armoured companies/battlegroups are about as competitive as a baby fighting a gorilla, its designed for fun, the most important aspect of any wargame.

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post #43 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-07-10, 10:17 PM
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Stella, you said, "[I]absolutely not, but there is something wrong in expecting to win every game and acting like a dickhead when you don't, which unfortunately is becoming more common"[/I]

That does not equal being competative... that equal being a poor sport. To imply that is does is right up there with calling somebody a "cheesemonger"

Also: I'd agree with that, these days all people care about is making army x more competitive than army y and labeling army z as being useless, actually playing the game just for the sake of playing stopped LOOOOOOONG ago

I think that statement waaayyyy little over the top... To imply that those of us who actually play the game still only do so in order to trounce the unwashed under the iron heal of our uber lists is just plain silly. I enjoy a competative game... Not a beatdown... Nobody wants to be tabled turn 2 and nobody gets much out of tabling somebody turn 2... But you write like this is what the game has devolved to.... and I think for the vast majority of experiances out there you're completely wrong...
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post #44 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-07-10, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CLT40k View Post
Stella, you said, "[i]absolutely not, but there is something wrong in expecting to win every game and acting like a dickhead when you don't, which unfortunately is becoming more common"[/I]

That does not equal being competative... that equal being a poor sport. To imply that is does is right up there with calling somebody a "cheesemonger"
never did I say it equaled being competitive, like I said, theres nothing wrong in wanting to win, we all do, there is something wrong in expecting to win every game and acting like a dickhead when you don't.
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Originally Posted by CLT40k;671225Also: [COLOR=orange
I'd agree with that, these days all people care about is making army x more competitive than army y and labeling army z as being useless, actually playing the game just for the sake of playing stopped LOOOOOOONG ago[/COLOR]

I think that statement waaayyyy little over the top... To imply that those of us who actually play the game still only do so in order to trounce the unwashed under the iron heal of our uber lists is just plain silly. I enjoy a competative game... Not a beatdown... Nobody wants to be tabled turn 2 and nobody gets much out of tabling somebody turn 2... But you write like this is what the game has devolved to.... and I think for the vast majority of experiances out there you're completely wrong...
and I never said that, just look around the forums, you see the vast majority of people these days as labeling every single army as shit, even armies they never have or never will play or play against (especially bloody nid players now they got an FAQ that makes them think for once), and the majority of people do only care about making army x better than army y, nobody cares about just playing what you have and winning with your brain and not the list.

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post #45 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-07-10, 11:00 PM
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And hence going back to my points that the games got no heart anymore.

Lots of people just see it as a bunch of figures and numbers and stats to be conquered, rather then a game thats for fun.
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post #46 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-07-10, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
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And hence going back to my points that the games got no heart anymore.

Lots of people just see it as a bunch of figures and numbers and stats to be conquered, rather then a game thats for fun.
Not in my area among the 60/70 players I game with on a regular basis, plus when I frequent GW Stores and other Clubs I don't see it either.

The game's heart is pumping strongly..maybe not where you are, but maybe you should actively try to change the situation..be proactive.
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post #47 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-08-10, 12:02 AM
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yeah, if all I saw were numbers the game would be no fun...

When I play, I see my long fangs shooting rockets at the bad guys... My wolf guard busting heads open in the name of Russ and my Rune priest zapping stuff with lightning from his eyes... Speeders go zoom and Wolf Scouts sneak around behind the bad guys to wreck thier stuff... That's what I see....

When I design a list, I think "hmmm... how would I handle X threat with this list" - since I don't design lists to play against diff types of armies... (that seems a little cheesy to me... ie, nids get one lists, chaos another, etc...) And yeah, I think of it in terms of numbers... ie, this costs 140 and gives me x... that costs 100 and gives me Y.... I think about having a good spread across the FoC. I think about keeping stuff small, cheap and able to break stuff... so yeah, it's a math exercise to some extent... but is is not why I play...

Win/Lose/Draw - as long as my little plastic guys did at least ONE heroic thing, I go home happy... If I get dishragged, then I have something to think about till my next game...

And I think there are a lot of folks out there who are just like me... Perhaps you and Stella are just in a bad spot... and maybe I'm just in a good one... But I think it's unfair to say the game has lost its soul...
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post #48 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-08-10, 01:26 AM
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Im kinda like play 2 types of list (Red Corsairs and EC) that are both Fluffy and have Competitive componets.

My EC theme army is mostly made of Sonic Marines, Lash DP and Sorceror, LC Termies w/ Mark of Slannesh in Raider, Dread with Heavy Flamer as a Doom Siren, and then Oblits. The Troops/Elites is very Fluffy and overall Competitive. Dual Lash very Fluffy and effective. Oblits not super fluffy but very effective.

So all in all its not the Copy Paste Toureny Winning List that most generic power gamers use, but it holds its own. I try to do that with both my List.

So Im a Gamer and Hobbyist. I also dont play games with unpainted models.
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post #49 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-08-10, 03:52 AM
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I play Necrons. In 5th. I'm obviously not trying to be a powergamer. I love my undead robot skeletons, but lets face it, 5th came along and raped them of everything that made them powerful.

I play for fluffiness, but winning isn't bad either. My real passion is the hobby itself but I do like actually playing the game as well.

Restrictions/etc:
I don't have to deal with them. I never really have to deal with them. I mean, nobody bans Necrons. I put down for necrons and everyone looks at the sheet, curious because nobody even thought to post availability for them.

Affect on game:
However, I am familiar with such ideas. It all depends. Theres a way to take it too far, but using systems for such things isn't a huge problem. It definitely makes the whole thing much fluffier.

Why I love my army:
I love the fluff for the Necrons, and the fact that there are a lot of holes, or really, just one huge hole, in their history leaves a lot of room for me to make my own histories in. I'm writing about just such a thing right now. As for what drives me to keep building and modeling, I love the look and feel of the models- Necrons are very sinister, but not over-the-top-in-your-face-evil like Chaos, or mean-spirited-nasty-bastard-sneak-murderer like DE. They're something more refined, yet purely evil. They just don't give a damn. We're insects in their way, and they just walk around annihilating everything like its little more than a speedbump. The fluff, appearance, and general feel of the army portrays this very well.

Gamism/hobbyism-
I'm a hobbyist, through and through, but I've met plenty of great "gamists". Just because you like to play the game and win doesn't inherently make you a bad person. Its all about attitude. I've met asshat hobbyists too, and I didn't like them either. As for you, well, its seems you've found a happy medium, and thats cool too as long as your attitude remains up.

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post #50 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-08-10, 04:56 AM
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So I think what it all comes down to is that 40K is a great hobby that people have a lot of fun with unless you're in an area full of douchebags. Does that sum things up nicely?
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