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post #21 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-06-10, 09:36 PM
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And thats kind of the point and the problem again. Its just a constant circle of trying to muscle out and one up the other person, making it an obsession rather then a bit of fun in your free time which is what it should be, and forcing out the guy who's new and doesn't know how to compete or just wants to play his 'fluffy' army and just plain have fun.

Theres no heart left in the game.
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post #22 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-06-10, 10:06 PM
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And thats kind of the point and the problem again. Its just a constant circle of trying to muscle out and one up the other person, making it an obsession rather then a bit of fun in your free time which is what it should be, and forcing out the guy who's new and doesn't know how to compete or just wants to play his 'fluffy' army and just plain have fun.

Theres no heart left in the game.
No, it's about trying to improve yourself. It's like working out or something, you do it because it makes you feel good and to improve your health. I really don't see how this involves forcing the new guy out of the game. In fact, last summer I played against a guy who'd bought a Tyranids army but hadn't played a game before. After our first game, every time I saw him we'd either play one another or chat about his army, tactics and all that. Now, one year later he's become a pretty good player and can beat me just under half the time (a little more in the last couple months since I've been fiddling with my new Codex). If that's forcing a new person out of the game I don't really know what more to say.

There's plenty of heart left in the game. You're just looking for it in the wrong place.
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post #23 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-06-10, 10:10 PM
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There's plenty of heart left in the game. You're just looking for it in the wrong place.
Like the mirror..maybe there's no more hert in the game as far as HE is concerned, but plenty of players and hobbyists still have plenty of heart and dedication to the game.
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post #24 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-06-10, 11:13 PM
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Theres no heart left in the game.
Talk about an over-generalization The Web has a lot to answer for.

In 20+ years of Gaming I have witnessed very little bad behaviour, and it's not like it's hard to stamp out. Just alienate the arseholes if they don't tow the line..they usually came/come around, well if they ever wanted to get any games.

If there's so many arseholes in the area you play that the fair-minded players are outnumbered, then I feel for you, but around where I live they are few and far between, so the above works very well. Plus if the FLGS/GW Store near you condones such behaviour then you're screwed..but surely that's not the case, as it sends the wrong message for a start, and isn't condusive for getting people into the games.

My non-constructive comment to fix the problem would be to move and/or find new players to game with
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post #25 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-06-10, 11:33 PM
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I'm pretty new to the game and I'd like to give my thoughts about it.

I'm a former M:TG player that was burnt out by the competition there was in it. Frankly there wasn't room for fun anymore. Like someone mentioned earlier the fact that there are forums out there discussing the "decks-to-beat" kind of crap, killed my desire to play the game. See, it was impossible to play a fun game without seeing that 99% of the players were copying the best decks. So the fun in the game was gone. The fact that there was also a list of banned/restricted cards added insult to the injury 'cause one couldn't play with some cards just because the same morons that designed them, had second thoughts about 'em and decided they were actually broken (of course this list was for tournaments but finally it was just as official in casual play too). Long story short, I left the game for good.

So my point is, over-competitiveness in a game just plain kills the fun part of it. But if there are tournaments there is always going to be this kind of gaming, where fun turns out to be a kill-or-get-killed situation (which btw is a fun irony if you consider the fluff in 40k ). One enters a tournament to win, (and maybe have fun in the process). But this attitude towards the game cannot be "copied" every time you grab your minis and walk to the local store to "crash" the next poor sod that crossed your path. I'm all for casual and fun games, but I also would like someday to field an army that takes me to the top spot in a tournament. The thing is I'll always enjoy the game in playing not only in winning.

BTW, to answer one of the questions posted, I like both aspects of the game. Painting is a challenge for me and find it a very nice way of relaxing. I cannot say I like playing since my first battle is still pending.... still I think I'm gonna have a blast with my GKs anytime soon.
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post #26 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-07-10, 12:05 AM Thread Starter
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To me the gaming and hobby parts are both about trying to improve myself. I painted a nice table top standard for some time now, so I decided that I wanted to put in the time, effort and frustrations into getting above average, and it pays off.

And I feel the same way when it comes to playing the game, but do I improve by playing ďeasy cookie cutter listsĒ or by thinking out of the box and making the list that I want to play work as good as possible, better than the average performance?
My general thought of the restrictions as an advantage is that it forces people to think out of the box. When the standard list on the internet isnít a legal build, you have to think for yourself, and write your own list. And there by improve yourself.

This might involve that youíre making a list that isnít the best list possible, but I think very few fluffy list automatically becomes useless. The probably get weaker, but then you have to get better at playing it. So itís about skills and not reading lists on the internet.

But then again there is nothing wrong with being competitive and making hardcore army lists, but the problem to me is mainly the fact that I canít find a good way to agree on what the power level of a battle should be.

"Baby, Im a heretic, and your a spineless imperalist"
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post #27 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-07-10, 12:13 AM
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is There something wrong with wanting to win every game?

I build lists based on fluff but that are still competitive(its easy with orks)
thought i have actually tried to build a losing(ie- not a good) list few times
i still play to win, i just cant help it,

of course i try to play ppl with experience, and not crush all the new gamers

in tourny mode- hells yeah 4-5 BattleWagons with 2 Kustom Force Fields, im in it to win it

I think that "fun games" should at least be somewhat competitive or how could it be fun to play anyway,

You owe your opponent a good fight and he in return owes it to you

I think changing the game to exclude a special character seems childish(i cant win if you use Vulkan so you cant use him anymore)
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post #28 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-07-10, 12:14 AM
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but the problem to me is mainly the fact that I canít find a good way to agree on what the power level of a battle should be.
That's probably because it's pretty hard to quantify a set power level that you want to aim for. How does one decide what's above or below this level that everyone's agreed on? It just becomes a huge hassle and it's almost inevitable that someone is going to end up with their feelings hurt, models they never get to use or something else unpleasant. This is why I'm an advocate of the "suck it up, princess" method. If it's in the army's Codex and doesn't involve blatant bending/breaking of the rules, it's kosher. Just because something's hard to deal with doesn't mean it should be banned or restricted. It's just yet another hurdle to overcome on one's path to self improvement (though it's admittedly a small part of one's overall self).

I'm gonna end this post now 'cause I feel like I'm getting preachy.
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post #29 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-07-10, 12:38 AM Thread Starter
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No, there is nothing wrong with wanting to win, but there are always prices to pay. Don't you think its better to have a fun and exciting battle and win, than simply leafblow the shit out of your oppenent?

Katie you can preach all you want. But I will you please answer this. Doesn't playing without restrictions or guidelines for power level make people leave some units on the shelf, and doesn't it heard if your army simply gets worse everytime a new codex comes out?

And just to say it, I'm not the biggest fan of restrictions and stuff like that. Im a great fan of playing the game GW created as it is. I simply trying to get all the views on this issue.

And this is my post #200

"Baby, Im a heretic, and your a spineless imperalist"
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post #30 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-07-10, 12:48 AM
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Katie you can preach all you want. But I will you please answer this. Doesn't playing without restrictions or guidelines for power level make people leave some units on the shelf, and doesn't it heard if your army simply gets worse everytime a new codex comes out?
Inevitably there are units that simply... aren't good. That's just life. There's no way to make sure all the options are perfectly balanced against one another even within the context of a single army let alone having each army balanced against the others. So yeah, there are going to be shelved units or units that only come out in Apocalypse games or whatever. For new players, they can avoid buying units they'll never use by doing some research beforehand and asking more experienced individuals for help.

As for an army getting worse whenever a new Codex comes out, I find that a bit hard to swallow. I can't think of any Codex that has gotten crappier every single time it's been updated, at least not as a whole. Sure, often units that were fabulous in a previous edition of a Codex become dumbed down and less useful than others but that's just something people have to accept. It's going to happen one way or another. Fact: Games Workshop is a company. Fact: Games Workshop makes money by selling models. Fact: Games Workshop takes steps to sell as many models as possible. There's no getting around any of this stuff, it'll be the same in any game system.
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