Gamism vs. Hobbism (Stuff about armybuilding and AS) - Page 2 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #11 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-06-10, 11:58 AM
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Personally... if your not playing the game to have fun, I don't see the point in why your playing. Heck... Its a game and a hobby. Not a 'you must win or your dead' real life situation.
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post #12 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-06-10, 04:46 PM Thread Starter
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Iím agreeing with you KatieD, they fail, and they ruin the gaming experience for some do to the fact that they canít play the way they want. But yet peoples armies change when new codices comes out, so why not try fixing some of the weird stuff and make people be creative and fun when they build armies instead of building the strongest army?

And itís here I think these restrictions fail. Because if you want to win and you learn how to build a competitive list without restrictions, you simply start looking at the army selection system and try to find ways of how you can abuse it. It simply makes the cheesy into another one, and there by simply fixes that the strongest list arenít called dual lash, but simply something else. But how do we make sure the game stays fun. How do we explain people that they should make a fun army with a decent power level instead of him bring his cheese to the table every time?
And these general thought of telling people to play differently to me seems unfair. They arenít playing the game wrong, itís not fair that Iím aloud to bring the units I like and love to play, and he isnít. How would you secure a balance gaming experience against someone at your club which arenít really a friend of yours?

I like the idea that HOBO is taking about, these narrative and campaign based restrictions is in my eyes a good way to make the game even more balance and really interesting. But its main weakness seems to be that you canít just take a quick and fun game without using time to fit it into the campaign or the story. Do you use like a game master or something?

To me itís quite important that my opponent and I are both fielding our armies to have a fun experience and a good time. But sometimes you end up dragging yourself through the game against the douchbag who are just focus on winning at any cost. How do you make these people cheer up and have fun instead of being annoying? How do we break the ice?

And just to be specific, I played competitive armies for years, and still I always joke around and have fun while I play instead of using every part of my brain to find the best way to win at any cost. Has it earn me tournament prices or titles? No. Have I had a great time? Hell YAH!

Fighting on in the name of having fun;)

"Baby, Im a heretic, and your a spineless imperalist"
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post #13 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-06-10, 05:04 PM
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Personally... if your not playing the game to have fun, I don't see the point in why your playing. Heck... Its a game and a hobby. Not a 'you must win or your dead' real life situation.
Here is a thought, might be tough so just stay with me here, winning.... Is fun. Just a thought so I might be wrong here... But I doubt it. Lol
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post #14 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-06-10, 05:05 PM
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Yes but its not fun having such an overpowered list that your opponant is a pushover.
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post #15 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-06-10, 05:59 PM
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- What are your thoughts about restrictions and army building selections systems? Do you use them?
I haven't seen any except "no special characters" - which I think is dumb...

- Do they improve the game or do they make it into something else?
Just makes another list the "best"

- What makes you love your army and what motivates your army building?
My main armies are Wolves, Guard and Tau (though my Tau have been on the shelf since Jan/Feb - I need more Tau stuff) I run pretty competitive lists and I like the fluff and the tactical stuff pretty evenly. I choose armies based on what I want to paint.... and when I build a list I look to get the most out of my boys/fish... For the wolves, I really dig the space Viking thing... I drove a tank in the Marines, so I have a special place in my heart for the Guard. And I think the tau have really cool looking transports and I dig the way my tau came out...

- Do I seem motivated by gamism or hobbism? And are one better than the other?

Honestly, I don't see a difference... I really like the hobby aspect - which for me involves painting, reading background, etc... I also like the game aspect - which is all about throwing dice and doing tactical stuff... I like the combination of the two... I don't like playing against the grey horde I like having nice terrain. I think you should not be a douche. I think you should know the rules. I think you should be able to look your opponent in the eye after every game and feel good about it.

Tzeen Qhayshek said, "I just hate the notion of each army having a "master list" as a recipe for winning. I find it detracting and down right unfair. I want to play to play, not to win - though winning is obviously a bonus."
They don't... There are a lot of ways you can run guard to be effective, you can run space wolves a lot of different ways to be effective too. Tau are pretty much locked into a mono-build. But there really isn't a "master list" out there... What we DO find is that 4th Ed codices have some limitations when compared to 5th ed codices and there are certain builds that are just more competitive.

GrizBe said, "It's a game and a hobby. Not a 'you must win or your dead' real life situation.
I totally agree... But lets compare this to other sports systems. I played Rugby in college and we'd beat the hell out of each other on the field. Afterwards we'd all go have beers. Playing hard and competitive is fun. The only time it gets un-fun for me is when people are being unfriendly during the game. But you can be friendly and competitive at the same time. So is your problem the style of competitive play or people being jerks while playing?

Kaizer said "I always joke around and have fun while I play instead of using every part of my brain to find the best way to win at any cost"
So do I, or at least I try too... But for example, I had a guy get mad at me cause I had a unit in B2B with an immobilized vehicle during his assault phase. He was upset because I got to hit it again since he didn't shoot me off it, assault me off it, etc... Is it MY fault I know some rules and he doesn't... Is this what you mean by using every part of my brain to win at all cost? If so, then I would say it's YOUR RESPONSIBILITY AS A PLAYER TO KNOW THE RULES AND NOT GET BENT OUT OF SHAPE WHEN YOU'RE WRONG. (btw that wasn't directed at you... just a general shout) I think you have a responsibility to be a good sportsman at all times. I think if you slow play somebody you should be beaten with a sock full of quarters. Ie, regardless of what game we're playing, we should compete, play hard and have fun.

I play the game to have fun. I don't play just to "crush" my opponent. Playing against a weak list NOT FUN FOR A COMPETITIVE PLAYER. It's just not challenging when you know you've got the win on turn 1 and it won't be due to good generalship on your part but because your opponent is stupid and made bad choices in their list.

One of the things I've not been able to figure out is what a fluffy list looks like... Is it the models you have? Is it taking bad choices (whirlwinds, swooping hawks, vespids, rough riders) I haven't seen anything from GW that would spell out what a fluffy list is (unless you want to run a company) I play space wolves and guard primarily, so if somebody would post up a fluffy list and why it's fluffy I'd appreciate it. I mostly just think fluffy=stupid choices so I'd like to be illuminated.
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post #16 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-06-10, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by CLT40k View Post
...if somebody would post up a fluffy list and why it's fluffy I'd appreciate it. I mostly just think fluffy=stupid choices so I'd like to be illuminated.
Just an overview of a fluffy Thousand Sons army-list for no particular points value:

HQ
Sorcerer Lord (with or without Terminator armour)
- Mark of Tzeentch
- 2x Any Psychic Power (probably Warptime and one other)
Troops
N x Thousand Sons Squads
Aspiring Sorcerer
- Any Psychic Power (probably Bolt of Change or Doombolt)
- Melta Bombs
8 Rubric Marines
Elites
None

Fast Attack
None

Heavy Support
Three of:
Defiler
Vindicator
Predator
Land Raider
This would be fluffy because it is solely Thousand Sons, Sorcerers, and TS vehicles; it therefore reflects all Thousand Sons being either Sorcerers or Rubric Marines. The lack of a DP as HQ reflects the TS hatred (and lack) of mutation (which is pretty much a given on the road to Daemonhood). It also lack close combat punch which fits with the TS belief in standing off rather than charging forwards.

Is it less easy to compete? Very much so.

Is it stupid? Not if your goal is to be unassailably true to canon.
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post #17 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-06-10, 06:19 PM
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Yes but its not fun having such an overpowered list that your opponant is a pushover.
I think it is fun but it makes my opponent feels like shit and I don't like being an ass hole which mean it isn't fun. I suppose your right, I want my opponent to have fun while I am killing him.
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post #18 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-06-10, 06:30 PM
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Yes but its not fun having such an overpowered list that your opponant is a pushover.
Frankly, that's the problem of the "opponant" rather than the problem of the person with the good list. It's really not that difficult to build a list that won't get automatically curb stomped by any other list especially given the vast amount of information available on forums such as this and the ever increasing number of blogs dedicated to gaming. People spend endless hours painting figures and reading fluff - I don't see doing a little research in to finding out what makes a good list as a death sentence.
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post #19 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-06-10, 07:16 PM
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Thats kind of the problem though.. the mindset of 'Oh, if my list isn't competative, I can't have fun.'

Pretty much its a vicious circle of 'I can't have a stupid list or I'll get stomped' - 'I can't play the army I want to play as it'll get stomped' - 'I won't have fun if I loose, which means I need a strong list' and so on...

Then your trying to push that on other players who may not be as experienced, or care if 'X unit is better then Y for z reasons', or they don't want you use certain models as it costs too much for their budget or because they don't like the look of them or want to paint them.

Seriously... what is the problem with the players these days? Don't get me wrong... I'm not one of these 'Oh, we don't keep score as it upsets people if they loose' idiots. But the thing is, its a hobby and a game. Everyone should have fun doing it. Okay, some people may have fun trying to make the toughest list they can... but really, whats the point of that at the end of the day? If your undefeatable, no-ones going to want to play you and you will get accused of being a jerk, even if your not.

Maybe I'm just being over-nostalgic, but when I started playing, everyone had lists like the fluffy one Dave posted... and whats wrong with that? Everyone had fun, sometimes you won, sometimes you lost and the army you had fit with the general theme rather then all being a generalised mech force that you had to have to get anywhere.

Wheres the soul gone out of the game?
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post #20 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-06-10, 08:25 PM
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Okay, some people may have fun trying to make the toughest list they can... but really, whats the point of that at the end of the day? If your undefeatable, no-ones going to want to play you and you will get accused of being a jerk, even if your not.
The point is to play against other people doing the same thing, to match wits with your opponent and hopefully have a close game. I can't think of anyone that would be happy if they won every game they ever played. The whole idea is to constantly improve as a gamer and you learn a lot more by losing than you do winning in the vast majority of cases.
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