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post #81 of 95 (permalink) Old 06-28-10, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Wusword77 View Post
Gotta agree with Katie on this one, she hit the nail on the head. Copy/paste players bore me to no end at my gaming tables. Kirby's blog does rock btw.
<3. I also agree with Katie. I find the main problem is as Katie pointed out, forums. Mech has dominated the field for over 2 years but there have been non-tank lists which have been good for over 2 years as well as hybrid-tank armies which have been good for over 2 years and yet you'll find most forums don't believe these armies are competitive.

Examples: Tau & Biker marines (Vanilla).

This comes down to understanding the mechanics of 5th 40k. 5th edition has made 40k back into a much more mobile game through the reduction in transport prices, the improvement of vehicle survivability, passengers not rolling around on the ground in pain whenever their transport hits a pothole and mission designed (namely get into midfield or lose). If you can design a non-tank army which can still deal with tanks, can take punishment (i.e. extra bodies, FNP, etc.) and is MOBILE, well you've got a potentially competitive 5th edition list. This is why Tyranids, Tau, Bikers, Blood Rodeo, TWC, etc. work.

Again, only 1/3 of my armies are pure tanks, 1/3 hybrid and 1/3 pure "foot." I'll take that variety any day of the week.
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post #82 of 95 (permalink) Old 06-28-10, 04:45 AM
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I have to say I have still done well with my all infantry Guard army and even better in 5th edition because I no longer have to worry about some random assault unit chewing through the entire army or having to send out decoy units to keep them occupied. There's always a way to handle whatever army one is facing, you just have to get in that codex and discover it for yourself. I'm really not a mech person, sorry but I still have a bitter taste for tanks from previous editions.

I do have to say though I loved 2nd edition, it was full of fun and laughs versus it's predecesors. Hell in second good luck keeping a group of Stormboyz together or how psychic powers were like the magic powers in WHFB. I use to love that, but anh again maybe I love it because it's where I started.
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post #83 of 95 (permalink) Old 06-28-10, 04:10 PM
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I am not sure about your LGS game players but where I play, if you start seeing a theme where its Mech heavy, we do an escalation league starting at the lowly 500 pt combat patrol, add some limitations for a little bit, like what we are doing, we started at a 500 pt CP with no Mechs the first week, 2nd week we allowed only 32 pts (armor wise front + back + side) armor mech, with no characters or Armor saves of 2+ until (1500 pts). I noticed some people just get in a rut, this works why change it and forget how adaptable there armies could be... We ran into an issue with Necron's having a harder time playing at a lower points cost due to there phase out rule. One way we thought of getting around this is saying there is a warp storm that does not allow you to phase, homebrewed yes but it put the Necron players on a better footing....
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post #84 of 95 (permalink) Old 06-29-10, 12:46 AM
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As a CSM Player I find Mech is laughable. The only Mech I use is Rhinos, just to get my guys where there going. With Flying DPs, 2 Wound Termy Armore Oblits, and the best Troop Choices in the game, Who needs Tanks, Walkers, or 8 Tranports with TL Lascannons (looking at you Razor Back), not me .

Also Nob Biker List laugh at Mech list. Seer Council List with Wraithlords make a Mockery of all mech list. There is plenty of non Mech out there. Im planning building a DE Haemunculas theme list at 1500 Pts with only 2 transports. As it stands there is enough St 8 Lance weapoms to make a Imperial Commander Cry, with 3 St 7 Tn 7 MC popping at you halfway across the board. Looking foward to this new list.
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post #85 of 95 (permalink) Old 06-29-10, 02:16 AM
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As a CSM Player I find Mech is laughable. The only Mech I use is Rhinos, just to get my guys where there going. With Flying DPs, 2 Wound Termy Armore Oblits, and the best Troop Choices in the game, Who needs Tanks, Walkers, or 8 Tranports with TL Lascannons (looking at you Razor Back), not me .

Also Nob Biker List laugh at Mech list. Seer Council List with Wraithlords make a Mockery of all mech list. There is plenty of non Mech out there. Im planning building a DE Haemunculas theme list at 1500 Pts with only 2 transports. As it stands there is enough St 8 Lance weapoms to make a Imperial Commander Cry, with 3 St 7 Tn 7 MC popping at you halfway across the board. Looking foward to this new list.
Sorry, Nob Bikers handle mech how? Hitting on 6's? Same with Councils. Eldar handle mech through mass S6 & Fire Dragons backed up by Prisms (certainly not Wraithlords :S). DE also wreck havoc @ lower points w/Raider/Ravager/DL spam. Move away form that and DE unfortunately suck currently.
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post #86 of 95 (permalink) Old 06-29-10, 02:38 AM
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Sorry, Nob Bikers handle mech how? Hitting on 6's? Same with Councils. Eldar handle mech through mass S6 & Fire Dragons backed up by Prisms (certainly not Wraithlords :S). DE also wreck havoc @ lower points w/Raider/Ravager/DL spam. Move away form that and DE unfortunately suck currently.
All good points. However Nobs List have dominated the Scene, hitting on sixes? How so, unless that tank decided to forgo each shooting phase so you roll sixes. Otherwise 4+ makes the Tank go pop, PKs a must. Same for Seer Councils, if they're so flawed then why were they highly stressed about? Cause again Tanks that wish to shoot have to move 6" not 12". 4+ again to pop, OR use Singing Spear to to Wreck a Vehicle that moved 12" Anyway. Hmm.... also ever tried to killed a Fortune 4+ Inv Seer Council? If you have Kirby you know nothing less than sheer bad dice roll on their part kills them. The Wraithlords also work in Harlie Theme Armies. Look up WayOfTheSaimHann vids on Youtube and its pretty solid. Not UBER but solid.The DE thing I cant really say as I have yet to try it. You know as well as I some things look good on paper but fail in the game, others look horrible but can win. Also this from a friendly stand point and not Ard Boys Meta Gamer point.

Last edited by Warlock in Training; 06-29-10 at 02:45 AM.
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post #87 of 95 (permalink) Old 06-29-10, 03:13 AM
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All good points. However Nobs List have dominated the Scene, hitting on sixes? How so, unless that tank decided to forgo each shooting phase so you roll sixes. Otherwise 4+ makes the Tank go pop, PKs a must. Same for Seer Councils, if they're so flawed then why were they highly stressed about? Cause again Tanks that wish to shoot have to move 6" not 12". 4+ again to pop, OR use Singing Spear to to Wreck a Vehicle that moved 12" Anyway. Hmm.... also ever tried to killed a Fortune 4+ Inv Seer Council? If you have Kirby you know nothing less than sheer bad dice roll on their part kills them. The Wraithlords also work in Harlie Theme Armies. Look up WayOfTheSaimHann vids on Youtube and its pretty solid. Not UBER but solid.The DE thing I cant really say as I have yet to try it. You know as well as I some things look good on paper but fail in the game, others look horrible but can win. Also this from a friendly stand point and not Ard Boys Meta Gamer point.
What scene? Nob biker armies suck because they can't deal with mech. I'll willingly forego my shooting with 1 or 2 tanks to block your movement and shoot you with the rest of my army. Seer Councils were good when psychic defense was rare and wasn't a pure 50/50 roll. To make seer councils work you need double fortune which means 2 Seers or Eldrad and most people don't run this which means it becomes unbalanced when you versus soemone with psy defense. People worry about Nob Bikers because they don't get game mechanics. Seer councils are worrisome becauase they can fit into balanced lists from a good book but no where near as much as they used to be. I'd rather versus a jetlock council Eldar list than pure mech.

Ya I've killed Councils. It's not exactly easy but when you have a balanced list with sacrifices, torrent, anti-psy and abilities like Null Zone, Councils are capable of being dealt with, just like TH/SS termies.

Fritz generally posts okay due to his understanding of 40k but he doesn't drop out uber competitive. Elfzilla (aka Wraithguard, Harlies, WLs) sucks. It has very limited mobility, poor anti-tank and poor cc ability outside of the Quins and expects you to land on it's anvil of Wraithguard and be counter-assaulted. It's not solid by any account, it's sub-par like all foot eldar.

And there is no meta-game. There is warhammer 40k 5th edition with players who understand the game mechanics and build balanced lists within those rule contrainsts (who are generally called WAAC, power gamers, cheesey and all that other crap for playing a tactical game...well tactically) and people who don't play to those constraits (either willingly or unwillingly; the unwillingly ones are generally the ones jumping up on down with the labels of cheese and OP whilst gamers like Fritz are more the willingly types).
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post #88 of 95 (permalink) Old 06-29-10, 10:33 PM
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What scene? Nob biker armies suck because they can't deal with mech. I'll willingly forego my shooting with 1 or 2 tanks to block your movement and shoot you with the rest of my army. Seer Councils were good when psychic defense was rare and wasn't a pure 50/50 roll. To make seer councils work you need double fortune which means 2 Seers or Eldrad and most people don't run this which means it becomes unbalanced when you versus soemone with psy defense. People worry about Nob Bikers because they don't get game mechanics. Seer councils are worrisome becauase they can fit into balanced lists from a good book but no where near as much as they used to be. I'd rather versus a jetlock council Eldar list than pure mech.

Ya I've killed Councils. It's not exactly easy but when you have a balanced list with sacrifices, torrent, anti-psy and abilities like Null Zone, Councils are capable of being dealt with, just like TH/SS termies.

Fritz generally posts okay due to his understanding of 40k but he doesn't drop out uber competitive. Elfzilla (aka Wraithguard, Harlies, WLs) sucks. It has very limited mobility, poor anti-tank and poor cc ability outside of the Quins and expects you to land on it's anvil of Wraithguard and be counter-assaulted. It's not solid by any account, it's sub-par like all foot eldar.

And there is no meta-game. There is warhammer 40k 5th edition with players who understand the game mechanics and build balanced lists within those rule contrainsts (who are generally called WAAC, power gamers, cheesey and all that other crap for playing a tactical game...well tactically) and people who don't play to those constraits (either willingly or unwillingly; the unwillingly ones are generally the ones jumping up on down with the labels of cheese and OP whilst gamers like Fritz are more the willingly types).

Im Curious by Game Mechanics and how people dont know them when it came to Nob Bikers. I still see Nob Bikers, Lootas in Battlewagons, and some foot slogging boys with Mek work well.

Seer Councils still work well, theres alot of Meta Gamers (I use this term for anyone who has remembered the rules by heart and applies math hammer to their lists, nothing bad about them, I dont have that gift) who dont run enough Anti Psy to deal with a Eldar Player busting this list out in Tourneys.

I also said the Fritz harlie list is not Competitive, but Solid. I still think its Solid. Just my Opponion. I think Iyaden Writh Gaurd/Lords/Avatar/Eldrad list are Solid. Alot others dont. There is very few all comers beat all by Math Hammer list. Leaf Blower and Lash/PM/Oblits come to mind, but even they can be beaten by other list.

I have nothing against Cheesy Players/Meta Gamers. I always try to build a list that can compete. Like Fritz though I enjoy playing something different from the Copy Paste List that you see so much of that you and Kate were talking about earlier.

Let me know about the Nob Bikers deal.

Last edited by Warlock in Training; 06-29-10 at 10:40 PM.
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post #89 of 95 (permalink) Old 06-29-10, 10:43 PM
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Meta Gamers (I use this term for anyone who has remembered the rules by heart and applies math hammer to their lists, nothing bad about them, I dont have that gift)
I disagree with this. metagamer doesn't really have a proper definition but I know loads of people who can basically play the entire game without looking at the rulebook or the codex because they play a lot. I'm one of them. do something enough times and it's stuck in your head basically. Also mathammer is technically in every list. You know Tau are gonna suck in CC against Marines because they need higher dice rolls to cause any damage and marines need much lower dice rolls to kill them. that's technically mathammer.

On most other points I Agree with mostly. Just a niggly thing I had to reply about hehehe
on that topic however what is the general consensus as to what a "metagamer" is?? is is someone who has to win no matter what and basically throws every other aspect of the game(including fun) out the window??

If you shit in one hand and wish in the other we all know which one will fill up faster.

And as I walk in the valley of the shadow of death I will have no fear For I am the scariest mother f*cker in that goddamned valley!

Damn nature, You Scary!!!
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post #90 of 95 (permalink) Old 06-29-10, 11:04 PM
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'Kay, apparently people don't know what the metagame actually is.

From Wiki:

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Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game.
There's no reference there to WAAC play.
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