New edition please. - Page 10 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
General 40k This is the place to talk about everything related to Warhammer 40k.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #91 of 95 (permalink) Old 06-29-10, 11:59 PM
Senior Member
 
Kirby's Avatar
Kirby's Flag is: Australia
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 230
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlock in Training View Post
Im Curious by Game Mechanics and how people dont know them when it came to Nob Bikers. I still see Nob Bikers, Lootas in Battlewagons, and some foot slogging boys with Mek work well.
Because people don'tknow how to deal with them. See again, 6's to hit *waves to mech.*

Quote:
Seer Councils still work well, theres alot of Meta Gamers (I use this term for anyone who has remembered the rules by heart and applies math hammer to their lists, nothing bad about them, I dont have that gift) who dont run enough Anti Psy to deal with a Eldar Player busting this list out in Tourneys.
The only time an army shouldn't have anti-psy is if you can't take it or you have a very specific build like IG blast spam or Vanilla Bikers. Otherwise you should always be fitting in psy defense.

Quote:
I also said the Fritz harlie list is not Competitive, but Solid. I still think its Solid. Just my Opponion. I think Iyaden Writh Gaurd/Lords/Avatar/Eldrad list are Solid. Alot others dont. There is very few all comers beat all by Math Hammer list. Leaf Blower and Lash/PM/Oblits come to mind, but even they can be beaten by other list.
Leafblower and Lash Chaos aren't good lists. Leafblower is an unoptimised IG list which everyone claims Darkwynn "created" IG mech with...because IG mech wasn't around before then. Lash dies to Mech and the Chaos codex is overcosted to it's new Marine conterparts.

Quote:
I have nothing against Cheesy Players/Meta Gamers. I always try to build a list that can compete. Like Fritz though I enjoy playing something different from the Copy Paste List that you see so much of that you and Kate were talking about earlier.

Let me know about the Nob Bikers deal.
there is no metagame. Metagame implies change. 5th edition hasn't changed since it's inception, only individuals' playstyles have. New books offer tiny "meta" changes [such as improved psychic abilities] but we are operating under the 5th edition rules. Must "metagaming" is tailoring because people don'tunderstand army mechanics. There is no cheese. Cheesy/OP/powergaming/etc is percieved when there is a huge discrepency between perceived army "power." This is generally a lack of understanding in game mechanics, i.e. leafblower, chaos and orks all being considered "good." Balanced lists will win more often than not against rock lists which has nothing to do with being cheesy or powergaming or the metagame. It's about understanding the rules and building an army to the best of the book's ability and playing to the best of your ability. This has nothing to do with this misconception of WAAC players who actively cheat. As a competitive gamer (unlike someone like Blackmoor) I want to find someone who has a good list and can use it because it's a great game more often than not and I'm just as likely to lose as win. Win %'s mean jack all so bashing up crap lists doesn't make me happy, even at tournaments (unlike Blackmoor). I'd rather beat good players and good lists yet people think this is power gaming because I'm taking the best list I can and should be punished with flaming, nerdrage and arbitary comp scores.
Kirby is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 95 (permalink) Old 06-30-10, 08:54 AM
Senior Member
 
darklove's Avatar
darklove's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 3,648
Reputation: 2
Default

I think there are a lot of meta game evolutions all the time. Each new codex and each new FAQ brings change. As people adapt their lists to beat the armies they fight most often, and those armies in turn change to stay one step ahead.
The good gamers (gamers are those that are interested in tactics and strategy and applying rules) always change their game and try to stay several steps ahead Hobbyists don't change their lists much because for them the hobby is more about models and painting, but the meta game is definitely very active among gamers.
darklove is offline  
post #93 of 95 (permalink) Old 06-30-10, 09:03 AM
Member
 
Ravingbantha's Avatar
Ravingbantha's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Phenix City, Al
Posts: 63
Reputation: 1
Default

If you don't like tanks, the field tank busters. After a game or three your opponenets will get the idea and stop doing it.

=============================
Yes I misspell stuff... You'll live
Ravingbantha is offline  
 
post #94 of 95 (permalink) Old 06-30-10, 10:36 AM
Senior Member
 
Sethis's Avatar
Sethis's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Alston, Cumbria
Posts: 4,190
Reputation: 58
Default

To solve a bit of the confusion; Metagame is the term used to describe how the majority of people you regularly play against play the game.

It's generally more applicable to Magic: The Gathering than it is to 40k, because there are only really three archtypes in MTG - Control, Aggro and Combo. Each of the three has sub-sets, but you can generally fit any deck into one of the three broad catagories. If you have 10 people who you play regularly, and 6 of them play aggro, 2 play control, 1 plays combo, and 1 plays some random deck that even he doesn't seem to know how it works, then your metagame is "Aggro", because that is what you face most often. You would then start tailoring your own deck to deal specifically with Aggro.

It's a bit trickier than that for 40k, because while you have the overarching theme of "Mech", each army does it in very different ways. You can have Mech assault, Mech shooty, Mech Spam, Mech Support and non-Mech (Horde, Sledgehammer etc) and every single army book will do it in different ways (A mech shooty Tau army requires a different unit selection and playstyle than Eldar for example) and therefore the perfect "Counter Army" is different for each race as well.

To give an example - You play against 4 people regularly, one has Tri-Raider with Dreadnought support, one is Mechdar, one is Tau Mech and one is Blood Angels.

All of the above armies are Mech, but consider:

- You need lots of Melta guns to kill the Tri-Raider list, but...

- Melta Guns are bad against Eldar and BA because Eldar are too fast and Angels will chop you up if you get that close without causing any damage previously, but...

- If you go for multiple S7-8 Weapons to deal with the Eldar/BA then you'll get smashed by the Tri-Raider list and the Tau (with their AV13 and 4+ Cover in the open) so...

- You have to take a balanced list with some Melta, some long range transport popping and some way of dealing with infantry. Your Metagame is still "Mech", but it's extremely hard to create a list tailored to beat such a broad concept, unless most of your opponents are playing exactly the same army list.

So actually, there is nothing wrong with being a Metagamer, because even if you do tailor your list slightly (I know I play Orks a lot, so slightly more Flamers make it into my lists than otherwise would) it's impossible to make a counter-list for what the meta game is.

Hopefully that made sense.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
Sethis is offline  
post #95 of 95 (permalink) Old 06-30-10, 11:07 AM
Senior Member
 
Warlock in Training's Avatar
Warlock in Training's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,475
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirby View Post
Because people don'tknow how to deal with them. See again, 6's to hit *waves to mech.*



The only time an army shouldn't have anti-psy is if you can't take it or you have a very specific build like IG blast spam or Vanilla Bikers. Otherwise you should always be fitting in psy defense.



Leafblower and Lash Chaos aren't good lists. Leafblower is an unoptimised IG list which everyone claims Darkwynn "created" IG mech with...because IG mech wasn't around before then. Lash dies to Mech and the Chaos codex is overcosted to it's new Marine conterparts.



there is no metagame. Metagame implies change. 5th edition hasn't changed since it's inception, only individuals' playstyles have. New books offer tiny "meta" changes [such as improved psychic abilities] but we are operating under the 5th edition rules. Must "metagaming" is tailoring because people don'tunderstand army mechanics. There is no cheese. Cheesy/OP/powergaming/etc is percieved when there is a huge discrepency between perceived army "power." This is generally a lack of understanding in game mechanics, i.e. leafblower, chaos and orks all being considered "good." Balanced lists will win more often than not against rock lists which has nothing to do with being cheesy or powergaming or the metagame. It's about understanding the rules and building an army to the best of the book's ability and playing to the best of your ability. This has nothing to do with this misconception of WAAC players who actively cheat. As a competitive gamer (unlike someone like Blackmoor) I want to find someone who has a good list and can use it because it's a great game more often than not and I'm just as likely to lose as win. Win %'s mean jack all so bashing up crap lists doesn't make me happy, even at tournaments (unlike Blackmoor). I'd rather beat good players and good lists yet people think this is power gaming because I'm taking the best list I can and should be punished with flaming, nerdrage and arbitary comp scores.
I get where your comming from, but I still think if they dont have a way of blocking you and move 6" Nob Bikers rock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklove View Post
I think there are a lot of meta game evolutions all the time. Each new codex and each new FAQ brings change. As people adapt their lists to beat the armies they fight most often, and those armies in turn change to stay one step ahead.
The good gamers (gamers are those that are interested in tactics and strategy and applying rules) always change their game and try to stay several steps ahead Hobbyists don't change their lists much because for them the hobby is more about models and painting, but the meta game is definitely very active among gamers.
I agree with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
To solve a bit of the confusion; Metagame is the term used to describe how the majority of people you regularly play against play the game.

It's generally more applicable to Magic: The Gathering than it is to 40k, because there are only really three archtypes in MTG - Control, Aggro and Combo. Each of the three has sub-sets, but you can generally fit any deck into one of the three broad catagories. If you have 10 people who you play regularly, and 6 of them play aggro, 2 play control, 1 plays combo, and 1 plays some random deck that even he doesn't seem to know how it works, then your metagame is "Aggro", because that is what you face most often. You would then start tailoring your own deck to deal specifically with Aggro.

It's a bit trickier than that for 40k, because while you have the overarching theme of "Mech", each army does it in very different ways. You can have Mech assault, Mech shooty, Mech Spam, Mech Support and non-Mech (Horde, Sledgehammer etc) and every single army book will do it in different ways (A mech shooty Tau army requires a different unit selection and playstyle than Eldar for example) and therefore the perfect "Counter Army" is different for each race as well.

To give an example - You play against 4 people regularly, one has Tri-Raider with Dreadnought support, one is Mechdar, one is Tau Mech and one is Blood Angels.

All of the above armies are Mech, but consider:

- You need lots of Melta guns to kill the Tri-Raider list, but...

- Melta Guns are bad against Eldar and BA because Eldar are too fast and Angels will chop you up if you get that close without causing any damage previously, but...

- If you go for multiple S7-8 Weapons to deal with the Eldar/BA then you'll get smashed by the Tri-Raider list and the Tau (with their AV13 and 4+ Cover in the open) so...

- You have to take a balanced list with some Melta, some long range transport popping and some way of dealing with infantry. Your Metagame is still "Mech", but it's extremely hard to create a list tailored to beat such a broad concept, unless most of your opponents are playing exactly the same army list.

So actually, there is nothing wrong with being a Metagamer, because even if you do tailor your list slightly (I know I play Orks a lot, so slightly more Flamers make it into my lists than otherwise would) it's impossible to make a counter-list for what the meta game is.

Hopefully that made sense.
Yes, it does help.
Warlock in Training is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > General 40k

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome