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post #251 of 266 (permalink) Old 05-30-10, 02:08 AM
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Absolutely, of all the Astartes Chapters the only 1 that has more influence in the Imperium as a whole is the Imperial Fists- and that's because they're the Chapter that is the most willing to answer other Imperial organisation's pleas for aid.
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post #252 of 266 (permalink) Old 05-30-10, 04:07 AM
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Absolutely, of all the Astartes Chapters the only 1 that has more influence in the Imperium as a whole is the Imperial Fists- and that's because they're the Chapter that is the most willing to answer other Imperial organisation's pleas for aid.
True Baron. in this case there are two cases of influence; influence through number (Ultras.) and influence through position (?) (Fists). Though if anything, I would have thought GW would have chosen the Fists as posterboys, being the Legion who stood their ground on Terra, while the Ultras. only arrived to pick up the scraps? Really I don't see what's to hate about the Ultras. their Primarch setdown guidelines to running the Legions, splitting them to Chapters, rules of using troops etc, is it only because they revolutionised how the Marines worked that they became posterboys?
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post #253 of 266 (permalink) Old 05-30-10, 10:13 AM
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Why isn't it the Blood Angels that are the poster boys? If not for Sanguinius hurting Horus enough, the Emperor would have never been ablet to take hime down. Guilliman was a dumbass who got tricked by the Word Bearers and kept out of most of the fighting as they were held back. They even lost to the Alpha Legion and had to resort to orbital bombardment to finish them off.

Its only because they were so far away, and arrived long after the battle was already won by the other chapters, that they were the only ones left at full strength, and Guilliman seized command as the only one with the power to back it up, not because he was chosen to do it. Heck, three of the greatest primarchs, Dorn, Vulkan and Russ thought he was an idiot and didn't support his plans until they were forced to. Dorn having the Imperial Fists attacked on all sides by the imperial navy being the only reason he gave in.

Heck... Then later the Ultramarines got their asses handed to them by the Tyranids on their home planet and only just beat them back... yet, they're claimed to be the greatest? Yeah.. right...
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post #254 of 266 (permalink) Old 05-30-10, 01:06 PM
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Why isn't it the Blood Angels that are the poster boys? If not for Sanguinius hurting Horus enough, the Emperor would have never been ablet to take hime down. Guilliman was a dumbass who got tricked by the Word Bearers and kept out of most of the fighting as they were held back. They even lost to the Alpha Legion and had to resort to orbital bombardment to finish them off.
Blood Angels tricked by Horus, and again it was Horus who told the Ultramarines to gather at Calth where they were attacked by the Word Bearers
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Its only because they were so far away, and arrived long after the battle was already won by the other chapters, that they were the only ones left at full strength, and Guilliman seized command as the only one with the power to back it up, not because he was chosen to do it. Heck, three of the greatest primarchs, Dorn, Vulkan and Russ thought he was an idiot and didn't support his plans until they were forced to. Dorn having the Imperial Fists attacked on all sides by the imperial navy being the only reason he gave in.
Well first the Imperial Fists weren't attacked on all sides, it was one Imperial Fists vessel fired upon by another Imperial Navy ship- neither was said to be destroyed and nothing suggests that Guilliman ordered it.
Guilliman was backed in his plans by Corax and the Khan (who had also stood and defended Terra alongside Dorn). Gulliman might have incurred relatively few losses during the Heresy itself but between the ending of the Heresy and the break up of the Legions the Ultramarines were severly depleted (somewhere between 75-90% of the Legion was destroyed) holding the Imperium together.
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Heck... Then later the Ultramarines got their asses handed to them by the Tyranids on their home planet and only just beat them back... yet, they're claimed to be the greatest? Yeah.. right...
An entire Hive Fleet attacking in one hammer blow! Other Chapters have lost their homeworld because of a massively smaller splinter fleet invading, yet the Ultramarines along with the Ultramar Guard and the Battlefleet of the Segmentum just managed to hold off millions and millions of tyranids- at a time when there were no anti-Tyranid doctrines and they were a virtually unknown aggresor I might add.
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post #255 of 266 (permalink) Old 05-30-10, 01:17 PM
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An entire Hive Fleet attacking in one hammer blow! Other Chapters have lost their homeworld because of a massively smaller splinter fleet invading, yet the Ultramarines along with the Ultramar Guard and the Battlefleet of the Segmentum just managed to hold off millions and millions of tyranids- at a time when there were no anti-Tyranid doctrines and they were a virtually unknown aggresor I might add.
And that's part of the problem. They're just too good at everything, and seem to always come out on top. They're like that guy at school who's good at everything. Secretly everyone hates him. Part of what makes people (and groups of people for that matter) interesting are not just they're strengths, but there faults, mistakes and weaknesses too.

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post #256 of 266 (permalink) Old 05-30-10, 01:27 PM
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Yet.. Sanguinius was the one who delivered the blow that caused the Emperor to be able to even defeat Horus in the first place.... Oh.. and he happened to be there with his legion, not on teh otehr side of the universe.

The fact was, Guilliman was the Lord Commander of the Imperium, so it was most defiantely him who ordered the Navy to fire on the Imperial Fists.

And thats Corax, 'Oh I'll just mutate my chapters geneseed and create a bunch of mutants I'll have to euthanise', and Khan 'I'll hide at the back in this Razorback while you guys fight out there' who supported him?

And having 70 -90% of your chapter destory, just defending not being in battle against any tough opponants, after the Heresy... thats really bad leadership in anyones books.

The fact is, the Smurfs aren't very good at anything and got everything they did by sheer luck rather then battling for it.
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post #257 of 266 (permalink) Old 05-30-10, 02:05 PM
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Yet.. Sanguinius was the one who delivered the blow that caused the Emperor to be able to even defeat Horus in the first place.... Oh.. and he happened to be there with his legion, not on teh otehr side of the universe.
Considering how far away the Ultramarines were from Terra they only got to Earth very shortly after the DA & SW who were much, much closer. The Blood Angels were, relatively speaking, very close to Terra, so that would be like saying you're in Texas and I'm in Toronto lets see who can get to the Alamo (spelling?) first and if I can't get there at the same time as you I'm obviously crap.

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The fact was, Guilliman was the Lord Commander of the Imperium, so it was most definitely him who ordered the Navy to fire on the Imperial Fists.
He was a Lord Commander but that doesn't mean he ordered that ship to fire on the Imperial Fists, he declared Dorn a heretic (and for all we know that just might have been a fit of anger breaking through his aloof facade) yet if he'd commanded the Imperial Navy to fire on the IF you'd think it would be mentioned somewhere. More likely was the fact that a number of Imperial Navy Commanders took it upon themselves to persecute the Sons of Dorn because they believed it was what Guilliman wanted (it's happened before in English history so why not in 40k?).

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And thats Corax, 'Oh I'll just mutate my chapters geneseed and create a bunch of mutants I'll have to euthanise', and Khan 'I'll hide at the back in this Razorback while you guys fight out there' who supported him?
Don't you mean Khan 'I helped save Terra by throwing myself directly at the traitors rather than hiding behind the walls of the Palace like Dorn and Sanguinius?', whereas Dorn 'I was too blinded by rage to even bother trying to save the Imperium' was supported by Russ 'I have an entire legion of undisciplined, mutant Astartes' and Vulkan 'well I have a tiny legion so the Codex won't really effect me but I like being argumentative'

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And having 70 -90% of your chapter destory, just defending not being in battle against any tough opponants, after the Heresy... thats really bad leadership in anyones books.
Not any tough battles, you know except for all those tough battles against every Xenos race that attacked the Imperium at it's weakest moment, all those Traitors that need to be driven out of the Imperium...yeah those battles were so easy. Unlike the other Legions they didn't stay concentrated they spread through out the enitre Imperium holding it together, the fact that all the Ultramarines weren't slain speaks of a genius level of leadership at work.
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The fact is, the Smurfs aren't very good at anything and got everything they did by sheer luck rather then battling for it.
They are/were one of the most disciplined, tactically flexible Chapters/Legions of their time- unlike the berserkers of the Blood Angels or the intrinsically undisciplined Space Wolves the UM work as a proper military force.
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post #258 of 266 (permalink) Old 05-30-10, 02:07 PM
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In short, not only is Games Workshop making the Smurfs look better than the others, they're not doing it well.
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post #259 of 266 (permalink) Old 05-30-10, 03:09 PM
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I like the ultra smurfs, they are proberly the only Gay Marines i do like lol, as for all those Gay Angels and things, NAH cant be doing with them.

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post #260 of 266 (permalink) Old 05-30-10, 03:53 PM
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Personally, I used to dislike them just because of Guilliman; other than him the chapter was fine as far as I was concerned. Its that primarch who irked me; but then I thought about it and all those reasons I disliked him, every one of them was unfounded, untrue, or stupid.

Not my favorite one out there, but far from the least liked either.

Some people hate on Guilliman for ruining the Imperium and reshaping it in his image, well answer this one; who else was stepping up to lead the shattered loyalists in the wake of the Heresy and Scouring?

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